The multitude of existence in Universe - true or not?

Discussion in 'The Water Cooler' started by Pauli, Sep 14, 2013.

  1. Pauli

    Pauli Extraordinary Member
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    Well, this could be the thread to propose and discuss any spiritual or religious matters, as well as earthly ones. And, issues about aliens and extraterrestrials are allowed to be discussed. Mike gave me some inspiration here.

    I hope anyone participating will honor and respect views of others. Flaming will not be allowed, this is meant to be a constructive thread.

    As for me, to introduce myself, I'm a sturdy Bible Believer. My opinion and conception is that we have had several creations. But I don't deny other's right to their views. It's quite probable that a topic like this ends dead, but one never knows, unless one tries.

    All I can say is, Welcome. Doing it well, it could be both fun and prosperous.

    =========================================================

    To start with, do you believe that there has been / is life outside of Earth?
     
    #1 Pauli, Sep 14, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2013
  2. seekermeister

    seekermeister Honorable Member

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    "Bingo Bango", such a peculiar choice of titles.
     
  3. Pauli

    Pauli Extraordinary Member
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    Quite right, seekermeister. I sometimes get these brilliant ideas... :redface: It can be considered to be bad humor.

    I changed the topic, I also thought about asking Mike to delete the whole thing, but there might be something in it, if it stays clean from naming and flaming. Don't know. Let's give it a chance? Any topicsuggestions are welcome, by the way.
     
  4. seekermeister

    seekermeister Honorable Member

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    Somehow, I feel that it is now up to someone on the other side of the fence to speak up. I will wait until they do.
     
  5. Pauli

    Pauli Extraordinary Member
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    I guess we will be waiting? No real idea to continue this, us two alone.

    Cheerio.
     
  6. Pauli

    Pauli Extraordinary Member
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    Interested in basic questions about BEING, existentialism, and personally relying on the Bible, but unable to ignore basic facts like that the Pyramids could not have been built by primitive people, since the task would be almost impossible to achieve by us today, I've hit junctions time after time in my thought.

    I don't believe the Big Bang. I don't believe this all and everything was put together by a coincidence: In the beginning there was nothing, then that nothing exploded... blaah blaah... and all was put to place. I believe it was created and built by a supreme Intelligence. There clearly is a plan.

    I also believe, in fact, that God = that supreme Intelligence, is beyond the Bible. Very difficult for me to believe or accept, that the Creator has created the whole vast Universe to only populate one tiny planet with humans. I think, there's much more to it. Like there was much more to the discussion if Earth is flat - the Bible proves that Earth is round. I believe there has been several creations, even on Earth.

    Men fight, Truth doesn't fight. Truth is.

    Personally, I believe in other life forms. I also believe they have, in a way or another, interfered with human life.

    Any thoughts and ideas and beliefs are welcome. Flaming or naming are not accepted. Respect for others is required.

    If we get it rolling, it could be both fun and rewarding.
     
  7. Mike

    Mike Windows Forum Admin
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    If this is my legacy, so be it lol

    I was raised Roman Catholic, but I am open to many different ideas in spiritual life. I think this could be a constructive thread. Because I do not have objective evidence of certain things, I suspect that we are limited to the five basic senses, and that there are alternative realms of existence and reality that we are not aware of and can never become aware of. Today, we are able to use technology to augment our reality, and discover more of what we would never have learned without it. However, I surmise that much like a fish is in a fish bowl, humans, too, are limited in their perception. Do the fish even know they're in a fish bowl? Clearly, when a bird flies into a window, it did not know the window was there. There are limits to our perceptions, as human beings, so I do not feel justified to give a definite answer on such spiritual matters.

    I am a bit superstitious about things, and like most intelligent people, hopefully, have an open mind on such matters. I do not believe religion and science are mutually exclusive. However, what happens outside of our realm of existence, and when we die, I can't claim to know with one hundred percent certainty. A true believer in religion might say otherwise. However, my science mind tells me something more is afoot.

    On this basis, I suspect that because there is some truth to most mythology, there is likely a basis of fact in most religion. Now, when we look at some of these issues, this is an article that changed my perspective on life shortly after the death of a loved one in August 2012. This was an article from Newsweek Magazine (and therefore, it is on The Daily Beast, which is the online version of the paper):

    Heaven is Real: A Doctor's Experience with the Afterlife

    This story is quite compelling, if not a bit creepy, and contains quite a dramatic recollection of events of a neurosurgeon who was clinically dead for a relatively long period of time and came back to life. Of course, since that article was published, he has started his own website, published a book, and become filthy rich from this story, so his credibility rating could, indeed, be downgraded since the initial publication. And it has indeed been called into question by debunkers.

    Now, by turning to the afterlife (or perhaps there is nothing there, as some would argue), I bring up a point that such a place may simply lead to a new realm of existence, or, as in numerous belief systems, reincarnation. What we know about tissue is that the bone is made out of mitochondrial DNA, while the regular tissue and muscle in our bodies is purely atomic. Because we know that matter does not disappear in the universe, we must be aware that we, ourselves, are complex organisms, yet on the sub-atomic level, are made out of countless particles of matter, potentially from all over the universe. Even the petroleum that we use from the earth is remnant material from huge mammoths long since gone; absent any sunlight, and given the right set of variables, this petroleum has formed over the course of many millions of years.

    The reason I argue that science and religion are not mutually exclusive is that until we know what the catalyst was for the creation of the universe, we can not rule out the existence of a higher power. It is also impossible to prove a negative in science. So you cannot disprove the existence of anything. Science seeks evidence of what can be observed, while faith seeks observation of what may often lack evidence. Also, we cannot explain certain patterns in nature, such as the origin of symmetry. For example, the idea that humans have bilateral symmetry is quite amazing.

    There is much to be learned, so I do not consider myself to be an expert on the subject. I can say, with absolute certainty, that our way of life, today, will be seen as entirely barbaric to future generations. As for life existing in other places in the universe, there are many theories, none of which can be ruled out until we traverse the galaxy properly, like in Star Trek (the original and not the JJ Abrams version). :wink:

    To sum up my beliefs, I discount nothing, and try to be an ethical and moral person, and try to show decency to friends and family. In this area, we all fall short of our expectations, and the expectations of others, from time to time, and some more than others. Because I do not know with one hundred percent certainty the meaning of life, the most logical decision would be to make the most out of life, and leave a lasting impression for future loved ones and generations.

    Now, this can be done, and has been done. I think that is a start in creating a better world for our children and grandchildren. With that being said, I do not have any children. Some people say their perspective in life changes drastically when they do. How can we understand this, the greatest mystery of all? We could ponder about the question of the origin of life and its meaning forever.

    On the subject of extraterrestrials visiting our world, I believe that the Bible and holy books are relics that should be used when seeking moral wisdom or guidance, but while also using critical thinking. It should not be used as a 100% instruction manual (if this were the case, we may be bartering with pack mules and so forth). These holy books are dated, their translations greatly obscured, and, over the centuries, quite altered. This is not to say that their relevance, importance, or even testament to fact or faith is invalid. It is simply stating my belief that over time, things get lost in translation, especially when we are talking about thousands of years.

    So with that being said, scientists, anthropologists, and so forth, do view the Bible and other holy books from a historical perspective, for reference in corroborating historic events. This is a logical use of science. Even atheists, who are tolerant, and sane individuals, should be understanding of why these books have value to people of great faith. Unfortunately, as is the case even with a book such as Harry Potter, people seem to draw drastically different conclusions at the conclusion of their readings. When these holy scriptures take on a dominant role in a person's life, it can lead them to a pious life of serving others, impart some level of wisdom or ethics in their thinking, provide nothing of value at all, or drive someone to an extremist cause.

    Thus, humans are quite mortal, I am afraid, and I suspect many of these questions can only be answered with a further understanding of our past, as well as our present, and hopefully, our future on this planet. One issue of interest to me is the evolutionary process, and how it has changed drastically in the last several thousand years. Humans were essentially hunting with primitive weapons and communicating like animals no less than a few thousand years ago. However, since the Industrial Revolution, humans are now capable of growing new appendages and body parts, performing enormous number crunching, and are even capable of leaving the planet.

    With that being said, it is hard to say how this has happened, but I propose that the technology we are developing today is part of the evolutionary process and that this process has accelerated. Why or how this phenomenon may be happening is unknown; we simply do not have any other situation to base it off of, other than, perhaps, the dinosaurs, which also dominated the earth.

    However, we are the first species, apparently, to have true reason, and to even be able to contemplate our own existence, and be aware of our own mortality. This is the strongest argument of a non-religious person. They would argue that because we have reached this level of evolutionary progress, we need to "invent" an afterlife for survival. I do not know how true such a statement that is, and I don't think anyone TRULY KNOWS with one hundred percent certainty.

    The larger question posed by @Pauli , about life outside of earth, is most perplexing, primarily because this galaxy is unimaginably enormous. Ancient philosophers and monks have sat in total solitude trying to unravel these mysteries. Research scientists, astronomers, astronauts, physics professors, and biologists have spent countless hours debating such a matter.

    I conclude that "I know that I know nothing."
     
  8. Pauli

    Pauli Extraordinary Member
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    Well, man is beyond his body. We certainly do have an existence that goes further from what we see in the mirror. To quote your link Mike,

    There is no scientific explanation for the fact that while my body lay in coma, my mind—my conscious, inner self—was alive and well. While the neurons of my cortex were stunned to complete inactivity by the bacteria that had attacked them, my brain-free consciousness journeyed to another, larger dimension of the universe: a dimension I’d never dreamed existed and which the old, pre-coma me would have been more than happy to explain was a simple impossibility.

    One difference between Western and Eastern reality is the concept of spirituality. Eastern cultures, like India, perceive spirits and beings in that realm as natural, whereas Western cultures stick to "hard facts" and rather see that kind to be demonic, and of Evil. Quite interestingly, Isaac Newton was a true student of the Bible, especially the Book of Revelation - in the Military, there's a saying Where metal meets man, in this case we could say Where [man's concept of] Truth meets [absolute]Truth. I salute Newton.

    I would say, the biggest flaw of mankind is, it assumes to know it all. There's nothing higher... In the early 1970's, the Pope, whom I don't have high regard for, stated that Mankind is rapidly loosing its perception for holiness. I think he hit a point. The spirituality and mental capability and willingness of people have been turned towards "strict and clinical control of existence through technology". Nothing wrong with technology, I am myself active in a Forum concerned with it, but still... I do think man is more than the machine he uses. I do think and believe, we are more than mere rational thinking.

    We may probably never, before the eternal, get the whole picture. But there's always the hope. :)
     
  9. seekermeister

    seekermeister Honorable Member

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    The only thing that I shall add to the discussion, at the moment, is a redefinition of science. While it is obvious that it has it's function in discovering truth in our physical realm, and is often touted as being more rational than religion, which is partially true, it also has a side to it that is less obvious to most people. Many in mainstream science retain their own personal perspectives that has little to do with reality, and these perspectives has a very strong influence on how reality is judged. This is not true of all who participate in or follow the scientific endeavors, but most never see any deeper than the veneer which blocks the view of all of the inner cogs. While many hold science as being apart from, and in many cases, superior to religion, the fact is that science is a religion itself. A religion that attempts to deny the existence of anything that it can't see, hear, feel or measure.

    On the other hand, most organized religions of the world are equally, if not more narrow minded, and can't see past their prescribed doctrines and rituals. Again, this is owing greatly to the power and influence of people within those religions that have far less interest in truth, either divine or secular, and uses their organizations to manipulate others to their own benefit. That is not to say that all people in organized religions are just sheep, but sheep without a proper shepherd. This is why I do not subscribe to either science or organized religions, because doing so would only cause me to get more lost than I already am, and there is no comfort in being lost with a multitude of strangers, whether Christian, pagan or secular. All of this confusion is by design, but not God's, neither is the design totally that of man's. Consider then who is the architect of our towers of confusion?
     
    #9 seekermeister, Sep 27, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
  10. Pauli

    Pauli Extraordinary Member
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    I love that. I'm rather confused myself. Einstein never stopped being confused and searching for facts, Apostle Paul was looking for a Home, Luther could only state "Here I stand" - the pursuit for Truth is probably an eternal journey. I just finished watching Battlestar Galactica, once again, and in their search for Earth they finally made it.

    "Rauha on mulle mullassa suotu", words by a foremost Finnish poet Eino Leino, goes like "Peace has been granted to me in soil". I don't think or believe our final rest is six feet under, I do believe we are all eternal beings. How and where and how (again), not sure. And who makes it to Heaven... I wouldn't bet on it. I trust and hope I'll be there, but I wouldn't say who goes downstairs.
     
  11. seekermeister

    seekermeister Honorable Member

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    I would, and I'm not a person subject to gambling, because it would be foolish to not wager on the only thing I know is a sure bet...anyone that doesn't find and accept the one true Shepherd. This is a "game" that every person who has ever lived on this Earth plays, whether they know it or not. However I shall not attempt to judge who fits into particular category, other than myself, and at times I do not feel that I shall be one, because I lose sight of the fact that I am not qualified to do so, based on the things that I know about myself, other than what I know and accept about that Shepherd.

    In a fashion, every person believes in a shepherd of one kind or another, but for many, their shepherds are blind and deaf, leading others with their lies and partial truths into their dark mazes, where they become eternally lost. The wonderful thing is that it is possible that any of those on those dark highways may, at some point in their life, see a ray of light that leads them off that crowded path, and onto a bright, less crowded trail that leads them to the source of all light. Therefore it is possible that all paths may lead to that trail, where the Shepherd waits, holding a lantern that never burns out, so that we shall cease tripping over rocks, and keep our eyes on the trail, and our ears open to the guidance of the Shepherd. As for me, I'm in the twilight between paths, sometimes tripping over pebbles and stepping into cracks, but I shall continue to pick myself up as long as I have the strength, knowing that if that strength fails, there is one that is far, far stronger that will pick me up again.
     
  12. Pauli

    Pauli Extraordinary Member
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    Paavo Ruotsalainen was a remarkable person in Finland, a layman preacher, and the story tells that

    On his deathbed Paavo was confronted by the devil, who asked him, Well Paavo, do you believe? And the man answered, No - but Christ believes for me.

    Salvation according to the Bible is a gift, Romans, Galatians, but I still have big difficulties in believing that is "The Whole Truth" of everything. Take the debate about whether there is water in the Universe - it's commonly acknowledged that water is the basics of all life, and scientists have argued that there is no water outside of Earth and thus, there can be no life. Now, not neglecting the fact that [intelligent] life could be living on photosynthesis, or even sulphur, as has been proven lately, we could have "living and walking plants", or like in the movie Aliens, creatures spitting acid, I know this one man who has been preaching since 1950's that there is water in space, and he's done it on basis of the Bible. The man is Peter S. Ruckman, I don't want to promote him as a person, but surprise surprise... they've found water in space!

    If you want to build a house for your [limited] family, you do it. You don't build a city. Recognizing the powers of Almighty, He could do anything, but I doubt He would be off limits of rationalism. A Scottish preacher stated, Faith is logic on fire. Wherever one looks, it all makes sense, it all makes a vast system of entity. Hardly suits with the very common thought that "Believe our pastor / priest / bishop / pope / whatever leader like Charles Manson" and... you'll be saved. Actually, Adolf Hitler was considered by German occultists to be Der Starke von Oben, who would lead them all with a strong and firm hand towards both victory and destiny, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Occult_History_of_the_Third_Reich

    When the "day" comes, it won't be a day since time has ceased to exist, I hope and wish to sit with Apostle Paul and Luther and all others, say John Owen, and many others I never thought I would meet, and marvel the days of ignorance we had whilst in "this flesh". It will be the point where we understand how stupid we were.

    Good for us, there will be mercy and grace, by God. Otherwise we would have never made it.

    I still think there are other creations... can't pass that.
     
  13. seekermeister

    seekermeister Honorable Member

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    The fact that there is water somewhere else in the universe is irrelevant to whether there is life elsewhere, because life is not created by a random combination of elements. It only occurs as a result of the intentional choice of God Himself. Can I absolutely know that He hasn't made that choice somewhere else in space...no, but it is contrary to the apparent meaning of certain passages of Scripture. Does that eliminate any possibility life in space...no, because we know that there are the fallen angels, which I do not believe are limited to only the confines of Earth's biosphere. In addition, I believe that those fallen angels, who passed themselves off as gods to our ancient ancestors, are capable of creating certain lifeforms...like the grays, (aka demons). They certainly are the source of human hybrids here on Earth (nephilim, annunak/anakim).

    The past existence of these creatures still remain in the form of giant skeletons, and are the possible source of deformed (elongatated, huge) skulls that have been discovered. I see no reason to speculate on other lifeforms in space, unless they also were created in some fashion there, but ONLY God has the ability to create life, fallen angels, demons and even man are only capable of manipulating something that already existed, and the Scriptures only speak of the creation of life here on our Earth. What God has created can be altered, as it was prior to when God wiped them out with a global flood. That flood did not destroy the fallen angels, only their progeny here on Earth. I suppose that a portion of that progeny was able to escape with the fallen ones, and may have existed for a time, somewhere else in space, but if so, that would not account for ETs of some remote random creation.

    While Earth arguably may not be the center of the physical universe, it is definitely the center of the spiritual one. Ever wonder why the red shift shows that all stars and galaxies are traveling away from Earth? If it was not at the center point of the universe, then many should be either traveling toward or at least remaining at a constant distance away from it. I have only read about one galaxy that has a blue-shift, which kind of puts a hole in the Big Bang theory. The more that man and science attempts to imagine things of this nature, the further astray they are led.
     
    #13 seekermeister, Sep 29, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2013
  14. Pauli

    Pauli Extraordinary Member
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    Yeah... "The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men." Psalms 115:16

    LORD, in capital letters in King James Bible = Authorized Version = AV 1611, stands in for the Tetragrammaton YHWH, יְהוִה, pronounced Yahweh by some, and Jehovah by others. So, we get to Jehovah's Witnesses too...

    They've found 6 meters skeletons in Philippines, and Goliath who fought against David, was not a small person, he was in fact offspring of Nephilim, angels - he was something like 5 meters tall. He wasn't a tall man, like we comprehend it, he was more.

    But this is earthly tale. And the fact that Earth is given to men doesn't exclude that other planets or levels of existence cannot have been given to others.
     
  15. seekermeister

    seekermeister Honorable Member

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    While it is true that Goliath was no runt, it must be kept in mind that the term "giant" is relative to the perspective of the person using it. Since people in those days were smaller than now, I'm not certain that we would use that word or not?

    As far as the five meter skeletons in the Philippines (not even sure now that what I read about was in the Philippines or not?), all that I found Googling was regarding estimates of the size of a "person" who footprints were found, not actual skeletons...unless you can document otherwise?
     
    #15 seekermeister, Oct 3, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2013
  16. Pauli

    Pauli Extraordinary Member
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    Thanks for your feedback, seekermeister. I need to check the facts. I have them in several places, but can't remember where... :redface:
     

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