PC vs Mac

Discussion in 'General Computing' started by Matt, Jan 3, 2008.

  1. TechieJustin

    TechieJustin New Member

    Nov 13, 2009
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    That sounds like a good solution in theory.
    However, do you expect to turn everyone into an expert? What about all the accountants and executives who don't have the time to put that kind of effort?
    Thats the problem. Even if you have some sort of mandatory class or lecture those people won't pay attention, they'll text the whole time.
    I've worked in offices for 12 years - trust me your solution not only won't work, it can't be done.
  2. TechieJustin

    TechieJustin New Member

    Nov 13, 2009
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    Again - easier said than done.
    How would yo implement this mass education of users in an organization os... 2,000+ users who have no interest in computers?
    What about those stock brokers on the NYSE or NASDAQ floor? Try an pull one of those guys off the floor for a day and teach him about spyware.
    I guarantee he won't show up. Even if he does show up, he won't pay attention.
    That's the problem. Education makes sense in a perfect world, but it simply can't be done.
  3. Kylethedarkn

    Kylethedarkn Senior Member

    Jan 14, 2009
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    If you always do what is practical, nothing will ever move forward. And people who are too impatient to learn shouldn't complain about what they are using, because they have done nothing to learn how to use it.
  4. droflex

    droflex Guest

    I agree with both Drew and Justin on certain things.

    In some business organizations many (not all) users have to be shown how to use programs they might not be familiar with.

    They shouldnt have to be taught how to clean a registery, defrag a harddrive, install AV and whatever. That is the job of the IT guy. The system should be bullet-proof to the user. In fact, in a business environment, the server (via the network admin) should be taking care of the security aspect.

    Regarding traders on the NYSE and NASDAQ floor...I'm sure the trading companies they work for have IT guys set up a computer at there home that is dedicated to only logging into the company servers and if they want do anything personal they would have to use a separate computer of their choosing.

    As far as a personal computer that someone has at home? I cant handle it when someone calls me at 9pm and wants me to diagnose some problem they have (OVER THE PHONE). If it is a question regarding "how do I find my pictures", thats fine...But malware and crazy stuff like that? Call someone else! Maybe they can call one of you guys that is so eager to diagnose that kind of stuff.

    Maybe post your phone number and email on here and I'll hand it out.

    My friend doesnt even know how to check his email. He doesnt want to know. I'm like "why did you buy a computer if you dont want to know how to use it"? He tells me all he wanted to do was download pictures off his camera. Fair enouph. Problem is: When he needs to get the pictures off his camera, I have to do it for him. He wont even watch me do it. He sure knows alot about fixing a car tho.

    I dont even know what I was getting at there in that last paragraph.

    Oh wait, I remember. It's because some people only want a computer to do certain things. No more, no less. My grandpa has a computer only to email his brother. He doesnt give a crap about the net.
    #24 droflex, Nov 29, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 29, 2009
  5. TechieJustin

    TechieJustin New Member

    Nov 13, 2009
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    I understand what you're saying and I agree. If I could wave a magic wand and bestow some basic knowledge of safety I'd do it.
    Mylast job, the owner of the company was in his 70's. I'm supposed to show him the difference between a legit error message and a popup from "SuperSpywareDefender.com?"
    It can't be done.

    In an organization where there are 2,000 machines running Windows the only real option is to lock them down. Restrict access to company approved sites. I have a cousin (in law?) whose laptop is set up that way. As soon as it boots, it authenticates into the corporate domain via a VPN. He can't install anything. He can't even surf espn.com. It sounds Orwellian but there's no way around it.
    Again at my last job we were hit by klez and cornficker. We handled it because we had 50 PCs. But I can't fathom what we would have done if there were two or three thousand infected machines.
    Every fiscal quarter we would "decrap" the machines. No matter what we said somehow there was a toolbar, DNS hijacker or rogue malware on one or two machines. Enough was enough we locked the network down. No more streaming audio - no nothing. We got hell for it.
    I think I said this earlier, but I'm not anti-microsoft. I give credit where credit is due. MS Bitlocker is better than Apple's FileVault which I'm using on this machine.
    I hate using the term "real world" but thats where I worked for the past decade and I've learned what the MCSE instructor says - is wrong. (Hence my low opinion of MCSE's).

    As for the 5% market share - I don't see what that has to do with anything. There are more silver engagement ring sold in the US than Platinum. Which is better and more valuable?
  6. d3v14n7

    d3v14n7 New Member

    Oct 25, 2009
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    I just need to say something to people who always harp on about Windows and viruses and other malwares vs supposedly safe Macs...

    Switch off ActiveX on a Windows PC and you'll have a hard time getting hit by most malware.
    With this off, you can try executing many malwares and they will sit there doing nothing as they now can't gain privileges to hijack your machine.
    This is pretty much the biggie for security and your PC is pretty much as safe as a Mac, even with more malware written for it.
    ActiveX is not cross-platform and is MS proprietary, thus, it will never become a standard and you won't find it used anywhere except in MS OS bolt-ons and extended features in dangerous rubbish like Messenger. There are alternatives which are more practical and can still connect to MSN.

    Additionally, you can switch off Windows Scripting Host to make yourself even more secure. You can temporarily switch it on again if you are doing any developer stuff that requires it, but it's not really needed for most users; even power users.

    For extra stealth, If you don't use them, you can switch off a lot of things that mention "sharing" or "remote" [though not Remote Procedure Call!] - in terms of visibility of your stuff to potential hijackers.

    Of course, continue to use a good firewall. A sensible precaution, always.

    I would like to say that you now don't need anti-virus but some people need their comfort zones.
    I personally prefer speed and efficiency.
    Even though my firewall of choice now has an anti-virus bundled, I don't let it run resident.
    Antivirus' are often stupid anyway, and flag anything that is compressed a little different to the norm as suspect and a potential threat, whilst still being vulnerable to circumvention.

    After all that, I will still reiterate that ActiveX is the main problem giving PCs a bad rep with getting compromised.
    Switch that alone off and you're going to have a less stressful journey and not feel like relying on crippling and ineffective anti-virus software is to make you assume you're safe.

    I hate the Mac vs PC debate.
    It's a technically incorrect argument.
    A Mac IS a PC that comes with its own OS.
    It is simply a branded and bundled product.
    It has more proprietary architecture interfaces than a PC which mean you have to go to Apple for an everyday piece of PC HW to be replaced by them at a premium price.
    Admittedly, Macs look nice - if you think that is worth paying twice the amount for the HW that is inside them than for a comparably powered PC.
    I can only assume that Apple still have a hold because software like Final Cut Pro is entrenched with the media types that grew up with the assumption that Macs are better for AV tasks.
    In a HW sense this was true, a very long time ago.
    Nowadays it still gets passed on through generations of Mac users who don't often even know what's in their machines!
    In these cases it is that HW capability is often getting confused with common usage of dedicated and proprietary SW environments.
    PC users would need newer Mac emulators or be forced to buy a Mac if they were required to work with the later incarnations of such dedicated Mac software as Final Cut Pro.
    #26 d3v14n7, Dec 2, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2009
  7. droflex

    droflex Guest

    That is all really good advice and should be posted as a "sticky".

    Maybe it already is, I didn't look.

    If Microsoft didn't seal those "holes" off in Windows 7 they dropped the ball again because we've been doing that for years now. It shouldn't have to be done by the end user anymore.
  8. TechieJustin

    TechieJustin New Member

    Nov 13, 2009
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    Should everyone who drives a car understand how to fix their engine? I don't know how to replace a timing belt. Noethier do most of you. Most of you don't change you own oil.
    That's my point.

    The last company I worked at locked the network down. no internet, no espn.com - no nothing. Windows based and now they don't have to worry about malware.
    Something is wrong where you have to lock the network down that tight to make it secure.
  9. d3v14n7

    d3v14n7 New Member

    Oct 25, 2009
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    I don't know who this is directed at?
    Is this still Mac vs PC? If it is, there's nothing really wrong with the networking side of Windows, aside from what the poster after you said, about there being bad guys trying to attack all systems. More commonly, Windows systems, as there are just simply more of them in use to choose to from. Because of this, if you wanted to set up a large botnet, you'd go the Windows route; also knowing that ActiveX is an easy way in, via an app like MSN Messenger.
    Group Policy in Windows is for all the business networking privileges .
    It sounds like your work was paranoid and couldn't implement this confidently so used brutal global settings or they just goofed somehow.
    Nothing is wrong with Windows as opposed to any other networking environment.
    As with any system, if you need to use it for this use in your business, you need to learn how to use it correctly. That means safely and to your advantage. That's what back office guys are employed for.

    The security focus in my post was mainly directed at individual users who want to go around clicking anything without fear of a compromised Windows system.
    My point was that you can behave like this in Windows if you take a couple of simple precautions, and you will never need rubbish crippling security suites ever again. I tried Norton in '97 and I may as well have been installing a virus myself!

    I just fixed a computer that had five[!] separate suites on it. Obviously a case of Windows paranoia caused by external influence again. The guy wondered why it was slow and not working properly. Uninstalling one of the suites left the machine in a condition I wasn't happy with so I archived his documents and redid the computer from scratch, with a good firewall and the precautions I suggested - plus a few more simple precautions for his specific internet requirements.
    Now I don't have to worry about him coming back to me.

    The fact is that most malware will use the stupid proprietary and unnecessary ActiveX system to hijack a Windows PC. Switch it off and you cure most ills instantly.
    Windows has a bad rep for malware because it is more common, and thus targeted more, and there is this easy backdoor for malicious software enabled by default, purely because Microsoft chooses to use it in their own OS bolt-on applications.

    Recent note:
    I just complained to Trend.
    Their latest Housecall wouldn't install on my machine because I have ActiveX disabled! They don't appear to have a Java version any more. It's crazy for a security company to require me to have this enabled to use their scanner. Stuff the scanner if it needs to elevate priviliges in the way that hackers do in order to access my files.

    For people who are simply users and don't want to think too much about their computer's software environment; who don't mind paying more for the same components but would prefer to, and can afford to, simply send it back to Apple for any repairs, by all means buy a Mac. [Although my friends have had some faulty ones recently. I wouldn't want something faulty at those prices.]
    Alternatively, if you don't want to concern yourself Windows security and and you also don't need to use specific platform dependent tools such as Final Cut Pro, you could buy a Linux PC instead.

    Me, I guess I am a power-user.
    I prefer to have control over MY machine and buy my chosen hardware at normal prices. I know enough about the Windows environment to enable me to do this. [I also like to have a massive choice of open-source and other software to choose from.]
    Incidentally, my friend just bought an expensive MacBook Pro. The majority of the spec is lower than my modified PC laptop that, in its original form, cost just over half the price of her Mac, one and a half years ago.
    I prefer to know what is in my machine so that I may modify it and optimise it for little cost. Fi: I have a fast HDD with a large cache that cost only £100. My old one is now in an external caddy. I also have a 4Gb flash cache memory module that cost me only £45 and is additional to my main system memory. This setup, decent graphics and an x64 OS is flying along swiftly and, with futureproof wireless and bluetooth modules, I shouldn't need another computer for a while.
    I guess growing up poor leads to an aptitude for these things. Back in '97, when I was sequencing music on both Mac and PC I was constantly overclocking to get the most out of my meagre spec'd computer.
    I got burned trying to use both simultaneously.
    I saved up and bought a SCSI Zip drive for £140, just so I could transfer files between Mac and PC.
    When I wasn't doing this I couldn't use it to transfer files to friends with PCs because nobody else had a SCSI interface card.
    On occasion I would dismantle my machine and install the card temporarily in their machine just to transfer something to them. Why not use CDs you ask? Our Macs at college didn't have burners.

    I see it like this:-

    Poorer people who just need a computer currently more than likely have a Windows PC. Maybe we'll see more Linux for this group in the future.

    People with more money, who use a computer in much the same way as the aforementioned, probably have a Mac as a no-brainer tool to check the web, mails and sync stuff with their other Apple devices etc. Also as a style statement.

    People in media often use Macs because they were once a more powerful and complete and ideal package and thus, a lot of the more commonly used professional media software grew from the Mac environment and some of it remains exclusive. Again, as a style statement.

    Power users (including gamers and other 3D freaks) who tweak and install hardware incessantly to get optimal performance more than likely have a Windows PC, because of the software and tools available.

    People who are seriously into computers and software development possibly take an interest in all OS environments but more than likely develop using Linux (on PCs or other development platforms) and also for Windows PC.

    These are just my opinions and I don't extensively research this stuff. I merely throw it all out into the open for discussion and to maybe learn something from somebody more informed.

    Who started this bleeding topic anyway?! You just know it'll go on forever ;)

    ps. Changing oil is a relatively easy task that many people used to do themselves but no more, because there are laws about disposal of such and garages have facility for this. So you may as well let them do it for you. I can only speak for the UK.
  10. scandiskwindows

    scandiskwindows New Member

    Nov 17, 2011
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    the commercials are just fun, either way, i think that both platforms right now MAC and Windows are tied, both have strong points and weaks ones, windows 7 is the show off that now windows is matured enough as for be a real competence to macs computers and also is enough matured as for offer to the customer more features.

    as for my experience, i had before Windows XP and well was fine, at least but always gived me some headaches when something goes wrong, and the only way of solve some things was C:format and reinstall and spend a lot of time with backups on DVD or CD and time reinstalling the computer itself with drivers and etc, now have a new computer with Windows 7 and really just one time had to reinstall the system but for my surprise my old files still on a folder windows.old so do not lost any file and just reinstall my software.

    about Viruses and malware, both Macs and Windows are tied, is not platform that have not viruses now, mac have as much viruses like windows have, the only difference is that we the windows users already knew it and use antiviruses for avoid infections, and the users with mac just somebody specialized in IT use an antivirus and regular users do not because they have the false sensation of be secure.

    currently both platforms are tied, both are stable and reliable.

    the problems with windows comes from generic manufacturers who develops drivers for something and happen that they did something wrong and cause that their hardware have a wrong behavior or even damage the OS that happens, in MAC is not that danger because not many manufacturers of generic hardware does things for mac and that is a point in favor to mac, in windows is a lot of manufacturers and even generic manufacturers that really does their work with software bad and later we put the system in the limit and pop up the blue screen of the death.

    in general am satified with windows 7 even had an old USB bluetooth receiver of generic brand and just plugged in and just works, not needed drivers and trial software to do it.
    #30 scandiskwindows, Nov 17, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2011

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