Windows 7 Clean install Or Upgrade only

[dido41]

I built my computer when the beta came out. So I did not buy a new copy of xp or vista. It is strictly running off of win7 RC at this time.
I have never done an upgrade to any of my computers and never will do an upgrade, as I no most of you guys will never do.
I am wondering about the following list.

1. Is the offer for $99 for an upgrade or full version of win 7 professional?
2. Will the upgrade disk do a clean format and a fresh install?
3. Will I have to have xp or vista installed before loading the upgrade disk?
4. Or will I have to wait till the full retail ver. comes out.

 

[tblount]

You can do a clean install from an Upgrade version. From other posts it appears that all the old OS does is Boots for the Upgrad disk (and maybe kickstarts the installation *IF* it actually checks for pre-install files.)

As far as I know, no one has tested booting the system from usb and tried to load the upgrade disk and do a clean install without an existing os.

 

[tblount]

In order to install the upgrade version of Windows 7, you must have a qualifying Windows operating system installed and activated. You cannot install an upgrade version of Windows 7 on a blank hard drive.

1. A qualifying Windows operating system must be installed. (product key) and it must be activated.

I don't believe this for one minute.... how long did it take for someone to figure out that the VISTA upgrade could be installed WITHOUT any operating system or valid keycode?

Answer: About 2 days.

Clearly you can do a CLEAN install once the upgrade disk is "kick started" and format your hard drive and install Win 7 from the disk without ANYTHING on the hard drive.

Remember, Microsoft spends more on marketing than programming... they probably just left off the bootmanager files so you can't boot from the Upgrade disk.

Also, remember that Microsoft has enough experience with customer support that they KNOW most people have a hard time finding the power on button.


Furthermore... I'll bet that when the disks are shipped you can call Microsoft and say:

Hey dude.... I was like, upgrading my puter and it like died and like I have nothing on it but this black screen. How can I fix it, I only got this upgrade disk. Can you like give my money back?

They will probably tell you how to use the Upgrade disk.

 

[Emil]

I don't believe this for one minute.... how long did it take for someone to figure out that the VISTA upgrade could be installed WITHOUT any operating system or valid keycode?

Answer: About 2 days.

Clearly you can do a CLEAN install once the upgrade disk is "kick started" and format your hard drive and install Win 7 from the disk without ANYTHING on the hard drive.

Remember, Microsoft spends more on marketing than programming... they probably just left off the bootmanager files so you can't boot from the Upgrade disk.

Also, remember that Microsoft has enough experience with customer support that they KNOW most people have a hard time finding the power on button.


Furthermore... I'll bet that when the disks are shipped you can call Microsoft and say:

Hey dude.... I was like, upgrading my puter and it like died and like I have nothing on it but this black screen. How can I fix it, I only got this upgrade disk. Can you like give my money back?

They will probably tell you how to use the Upgrade disk.

I just got an e-mail from Microsoft concerning installation procedures. They gave me the run-around. They want me to contact the Pre-Sales department. I contacted them and was told that they would get ahold of me via e-mail or phone AFTER THEY DO SOME RESEARCH!
I think I know what's going on here. They want their customers for Windows 7 UPGRADE to be confused about this issue from the get go before this particular version ends up in their hot, little hands. And what does confusion breed in the average persons mind? Probably "throw money at the problem". In which case a lot of people will opt for the full version to avoid any (preceived) hassles.
Microsoft is not be very good at determining just what people really want in an OS. What they are experts at, however, is adding to their profits (Bill Gates is still the richest man in the world--wonder why?). They have already figured out that to get the most profit from Windows 7, confusion among the geeks out there will filter down to the average Joe and Joe will opt for the full version. This may backfire on them, however. Maybe Joe will just wait until someone they trust tells them it's OK to get the upgrade.
Well, that's my theory. What do you think?

 

[Emil]

Sorry for the mistake.

Thanks Emil,

For previous versions of winows, up to and including Vista there has always been a way to install upgrade license to a blank drive.

That is why people expect it will also be possible this time.

We do not yet know for sure exactly what the situation is as nobody has an upgrade license to try it with.

Picture this:

You install the upgrade as usual. Some time later the HD fails. You buy another HD. Then What?

Do you have a link to the MS page you quoted from ?

Sorry. This info wasn't from an official Microsoft site. It was from Microsoft's official Forum site answered by someone who claims to be an expert on this subject (don't know if he or she is connected with Microsoft, but what he or she says seems to be accurate).


Thanks.

Sorry. This info wasn't from an official Microsoft site. It was from Microsoft's official Forum site answered by someone who claims to be an expert on this subject (don't know if he or she is connected with Microsoft, but what he or she says seems to be accurate--but you never know).

 

[SIW2]

Assuming there is a way to clean install with the upgrade license ( how else would you be able to reinstall after hd failure? ) - MS are not letting on at this stage - they don't want to encourage people to buy the upgrade license instead of the Full license.

That is obvious.

BTW, I think you will find the media is identical - the product key is different.

 

[Emil]

Lots of conflicting opinions from a variety of sources on this.

1 thought, already, mentioned, that, also, crossed my mind... if everything, all scenarios, can be done using Upgrade media and that becomes common knowledge... why make, sell or ever need Full Versions? Surely, trick or not, there must be a place for Full Versions, wouldn't you think? Otherwise truly a waste making them & they sure will pile up on store shelves & in warehouses.

2nd - someone wondered what the situation should a major componemt be swapped out @ some point down the road; I have, also, wondered if a 'tricked' install will get MS Support, say if Tech Support is ever needed... will the product/install be covered or will everything 'appear' as the norm & how the install was done not matter?

Anyway, I will try to find out, for sure, specifically, about the onto blank HDD question. If I can get something concrete will, certainly, let y'all know. I expect to have answer by wk's end.

Drew

Yeah. The thought of upgrade vs full version was the first thought that occurred to me. Why pay $200 when you can get away with paying $50 to an outfit that is about as popular as health care providers and insurance companies?
It's clear that 7 is being marketed to folks who bought their HP or Gateway computer, have a licensed copy of Vista on it and will just pop in the upgrade disc and be happy with the results (baring any problems with drivers, unauthorized programs, etc.). And it appears that they had us in mind--the folks with HD formatting on their minds--when they came up with the plan to require a previous copy to be present before an upgrade is possible.
But I think I have them over the barrel because I chose to save all of my install discs from previous OS's. I'm sure my plan to install MY copy of XP with a 98 disc as proof will foil their plans to make the installation of the 7 upgrade impossible on a custom-made computer.
But we'll see. Keep us informed if you get an honest answer to this dilemma.

 

[tblount]

No need to guess

.... And what does confusion breed in the average persons mind? Probably \"throw money at the problem\". In which case a lot of people will opt for the full version to avoid any (preceived) hassles.

Well, that's my theory. What do you think?

We really don't have to guess. When microsoft was asked about the the work-around to install the vista upgrade as if were the full version here is what they said then:

\"We believe only a very small percentage of people will take the time to implement this workaround, and we encourage all customers to follow our official guidelines for upgrading to Windows Vista, which can be found at WindowsVista.com, instead,\" said a Microsoft press representative quoted in a News.com article on Feb. 14, 2007.

...and when asked about a work-around for win 7 upgrade they will say the same thing again:

 

[tblount]

.... wondered if a 'tricked' install will get MS Support,

I have to confess that after 30 years of using MSFT products I have heard rumors from time to time of this animal being spotted but I personally have never know anyone who got "MS Support"

 

[Emil]

We really don't have to guess. When microsoft was asked about the the work-around to install the vista upgrade as if were the full version here is what they said then:




...and when asked about a work-around for win 7 upgrade they will say the same thing again:

My copy of Vista came with my Gateway computer a year ago. I intend to customize the thing to make it's guts unrecognizable to the factory-supplied Recovery Disc, so this is why I want to know the definitive answer to whether or not I can install 7 UPGRADE on what will be a custom-made computer.
If what you say is true and they intend to approach 7 installation in the same manner as Vista, then I would surmise that their marketing folks really believe that very few people will install the OS using any sort of work-around. But this begs the question of whether or not Windows will offer support for this custom installation.
As a matter of fact, it begs numerous question, right?
But it does explain why they are mum on this work-around, doesn't it? I mean if you informed the general public that they really don't need to buy the full version to put 7 on their computer, who in their right mind would plunk down $200?
These guys are cagey! They know that the average Joe doesn't read computer magazines and will probably never even contemplate this work-around procedure.
It's guys like us who they've written off as spoilers in this respect. If we are among a very low percentage of 7 users, they just cross our buying power off as a business expense.

 

[tblount]

My copy of Vista came with my Gateway computer a year ago. I intend to customize the thing to make it's guts unrecognizable to the factory-supplied Recovery Disc, so this is why I want to know the definitive answer to whether or not I can install 7 UPGRADE on what will be a custom-made computer.

We'll just have to wait till it's released or someone who has a copy already --- has an answer.

If what you say is true and they intend to approach 7 installation in the same manner as Vista, then I would surmise that their marketing folks really believe that very few people will install the OS using any sort of work-around. But this begs the question of whether or not Windows will offer support for this custom installation.

What is "customer support" ?? Have you, or anyone who reads this, ever talked to these people?

Anyway, how could they know what disk you installed from? They are the exact same except the "update" disk doesn't boot. (and maybe it looks for a file or two before it lets you go to "custom install" ) You can always say ( in the imaginary world where you did talk to someone in customer support) that when you were updating it wiped out Vista. If they ask for a of key ... simply tell them that since they ENCRYPTED the key you had no way to know what Gateway put on it and since Acer bought Gateway no one answers customer support for Gateway either.

As a matter of fact, it begs numerous question, right?
But it does explain why they are mum on this work-around, doesn't it? I mean if you informed the general public that they really don't need to buy the full version to put 7 on their computer, who in their right mind would plunk down $200?

Obviously MICROSOFT is not going to suggest or inform the public... but the major geek type news outlets will report it. That's why c-net and other such companies are in business.

It's guys like us who they've written off as spoilers in this respect. If we are among a very low percentage of 7 users, they just cross our buying power off as a business expense.

Haha... they know that "guys like us" won't even buy an upgrade disk. But they aren't alarmed because they also know that "guys like us" are the real force behind their "mythical" tech support.

 

[Emil]

We'll just have to wait till it's released or someone who has a copy already --- has an answer.



What is "customer support" ?? Have you, or anyone who reads this, ever talked to these people?

Anyway, how could they know what disk you installed from? They are the exact same except the "update" disk doesn't boot. (and maybe it looks for a file or two before it lets you go to "custom install" ) You can always say ( in the imaginary world where you did talk to someone in customer support) that when you were updating it wiped out Vista. If they ask for a of key ... simply tell them that since they ENCRYPTED the key you had no way to know what Gateway put on it and since Acer bought Gateway no one answers customer support for Gateway either.



Obviously MICROSOFT is not going to suggest or inform the public... but the major geek type news outlets will report it. That's why c-net and other such companies are in business.




Haha... they know that "guys like us" won't even buy an upgrade disk. But they aren't alarmed because they also know that "guys like us" are the real force behind their "mythical" tech support.

You're right there! In my neighborhood, I'm the "go to" guy after folks have spent hours talking to someone they can't understand either technically or because of a language barrier.
By the way, when I contacted the "wrong department" at Microsoft about my question concerning 7 installation, the first sentence of the e-mail I received asked, "Where did you get your copy of Windows 7?" (Even though the first sentence of my e-mail stated that, "I will be receiving my copy of Windows 7 like everyone else on or about October 23."

 

[Radenight]

I guess we'll have to see just what happens on October 23rd when everyone has the chance to slip in an UPGRADE Windows 7 disc into their DVD and TRIES to get what will be the equivalent of a Full Upgrade on a formatted disc.
What you are saying goes against EVERYTHING I have read on several posts about this upgrade. Gateway says it is impossible to do a clean install on a formatted disc, that one has to have an OS on their computer to make an upgrade. So does Dell.
And then there's this from the official Microsoft web site:

In order to install the upgrade version of Windows 7, you must have a qualifying Windows operating system installed and activated. You cannot install an upgrade version of Windows 7 on a blank hard drive. The installation procedure does not ask you to insert a Windows disc in the drive for verification, the actual qualifying operating system must be installed.
If you do not have a qualifying Windows operating system installed with a genuine license activated, then you cannot use the upgrade version of Windows 7 - you would need a "full version" Windows 7 license.

In summary:

1. A qualifying Windows operating system must be installed.
2. The qualifying Windows operating system must have a genuine license (product key) and it must be activated.
3. To upgrade, boot to the qualifying Windows desktop, insert the Windows 7 Upgrade disc in the DVD drive.
4. When the setup menu appears, select Custom (advanced) to initiate a clean install procedure.

Where did YOU find your information?
Like I said in the beginning of this post, if we could install the upgrade on a formatted disc, why on god's green earth would Microsoft sell a full version of Windows 7?
Let's see . . . what are my options . . . pay fifty bucks for a Windows 7 upgrade and install it on a formatted disc . . . or . . . pay two hundred dollars for the full version so I can do the same thing . . . hmmmm . . . I just can't decide.

I can see why you would be confused.. But there's no need to get hostile about it..

A qualifying version of Windows is needed yes.. But if you look at the list of what a qualifying version of Windows is you'll see that Windows 7 is indeed a qualifying version.. Thus this trick will work.. As far as why Microsoft sells both versions.. Well not everyone likes or agrees with workarounds like this... And others just won't be bothered.. If Microsoft actually did change something in Windows 7 that will prevent this trick from working then I'll admit I was wrong.. But I've not heard any confirmation that it doesn't work yet so I guess we'll just have to wait and see..

 

[tblount]

, when I contacted the "wrong department" at Microsoft about my question concerning 7 installation, the first sentence of the e-mail I received asked, "Where did you get your copy of Windows 7?""

Duhhh... they put it on their site for download for the last several months.. and set activation key so it would run till March 2010..

 

[Radenight]

I have to confess that after 30 years of using MSFT products I have heard rumors from time to time of this animal being spotted but I personally have never know anyone who got "MS Support"

Whether or not one agrees with this workaround is irrelevant really. The fact is (in Vista's case at least) Microsoft knew about this trick and didn't do anything to stop people from using it..

I tried it with a Vista HP Upgrade disc and it worked fine. As far as support goes, my "trick" install got the exact same support that a "non-trick" install did. It's not like your installing a torrented version.. There would be no reason to cut off support just because you used an Upgrade disc to do a clean install before you installed the Upgrade and activated using the Upgrade key..

IF the rumours that Microsoft are actually going to support torrented versions of Windows 7 are true, then what is the big problem with this little trick? At least with this trick you're actually using a legit copy..

 

[tblount]

Show me the money!

Whether or not one agrees with this workaround is irrelevant really. The fact is (in Vista's case at least) Microsoft knew
IF the rumours that Microsoft are actually going to support torrented versions of Windows 7 are true, then what is the big problem with this little trick? At least with this trick you're actually using a legit copy..

None are "legal" until they are legally activated. I can't imagine why Microsoft would care if the public went to a torrent to get a Win 7 iso. They know the money is in the activation. It probably cost them more to ship out a disk than to let people download it.

 

[Radenight]

I agree completely that the money is in the activation.. Which is another reason why I don't understand why people get so up tight about things like this little trick.. I mean think about it.. When you use this trick your not activating the clean install that you do first. You activate the Upgrade that you do second. Which is exactly what you bought, an Upgrade key.. I donno, maybe it's just me but I just don't think this trick is really that big of a deal.. To each his own though..

 

[jhmac77]

I am a little confused. About this clean install with the upgrade!

I don't understand what you mean. Normally with an XP upgrade disk I could clean install XP as long as I had evidence that I had a previous version disk like Windows 98. Then I can install XP even over a totally formated disk.

So what is with the Wind 7 preorder disk? Do I have to actually have XP or Vista installed on the disk first? That means I will have to format my disk, then install either XP or Vista and install Windows 7. Takes a lot of time.

Please answer!
Jim

 

[tblount]

I don't understand what you mean. Normally with an XP upgrade disk I could clean install XP as long as I had evidence that I had a previous version disk like Windows 98. Then I can install XP even over a totally formated disk.

So what is with the Wind 7 preorder disk? Do I have to actually have XP or Vista installed on the disk first? That means I will have to format my disk, then install either XP or Vista and install Windows 7. Takes a lot of time.

Please answer!
Jim

Let's start at the top.... and hopefully someone will correct me if I don't have this right.

You have two basic options to first chose:

Windows 64 bit or 32 bit

If your system has less than 3 gb memory or is an older system you select the 32 bit version.
(If you bought a disk from Microsoft they may ship both versions.)

Now you have two more options:

Windows Full install or Upgrade


They are both esentially the same ... except the Upgrade won't boot up. It WANTS an existing version of Vista or XP.
No one has reported yet if the Upgrade actually needs to find an Operating system or just needs help getting booted.
(one person reported that he had a new hard drive an put in an XP disk and started the install and then swapped to the Win 7 upgrade install disk and chose the custom option and did the clean install.)

Once the upgrade disks starts and gets to the options to Upgrade or Custom install, it's the same as the FULL version.

With EITHER disk you still have two options:

1. Upgrade your Vista, keep your settings, drivers etc etc.

2. Select Custom and tell it to do a CLEAN install .. which will format your hard drive, delete your personal files, pictures, saved email etc.

When you get to the screen asking for you registration key you have two options

1. Put your valid key number in

2. Press enter and continue and you have 30 days to get a key and get activated.

If you continue with the 30 day option you have two options

1. Get a key... they are going cheap on eBay because people have extra oem keys they don't need and they want to move them before the price falls.

2. When your 30 days are about to expire you have the option to run a command called "rearm" to extend your grace period 30 more days. You can do that 3 times. Giving you 4 months to get a key and get activated.


When you get 7 installed you'll have a few problems and the problems will give you several optoions.

1. Call Microsoft for tech support. Wait a couple hours and hopefully listen to some soothing elevator music and when/if customer support finally answers and asks for your product key number you hang up. Or you try to bluff them
and say you got your computer from Gateway and since Microsoft encrypted the product key you can't read it. ..They will tell you to call Gateway then THEY will hang up.

If your computer is not dead or you have access to another computer, you have more options....


2. Come back here and tell us that bla bla bal did doesn't work and we'll tell you to update your drivers or do a clean install or buy a newer computer/hardware.... or pretend not to notice your questions.

3. Google your problem and read and experiment and solve problems and come back here and tell us how you did it.

4. Curse Microsoft and go back to Vista/Xp


In the words of Forest Gump.... "That's about all I have to say about that.."

 

[tblount]

on a clean hard drive will prompt you for a disk from a earlier operating system during the setup phase.
Cheers,
Drew

What exactly does it look for? It's got to be writing something somwhere to first Run some kind of check AFTER the install disk is removed (While the other disk is in) .. then record "YES" or "No" somewhere.. so it knows which path to take when the disk is put back into the drive. That kind of check clearly doesn't have any way to check for an old keycode because no install disk has a keycode "built in"

How long will it take someone to figure out how to tell it YES no matter what the stored message says?

Yes... hackers sometimes lie to the "registration" checks... flip a bit in the code so it's like the old coin toss game we were once taken on ... heads I win... tails YOU lose.... always the same outcome.

It wouldn't surpise me if it went straight into the install with the command line parameter [/unattend:answer_file] and the answer file told it to format and install to c:\

I still can't imagine why MSFT would care what you did to get it on your system as long as you PAID them for a keycode/activation.


By the way, I just posted some more cool (well you decide) tweaking blogs Link Removed due to 404 Error

 

[Emil]

According to the good folks at Microsoft tech support . . .

I don't understand what you mean. Normally with an XP upgrade disk I could clean install XP as long as I had evidence that I had a previous version disk like Windows 98. Then I can install XP even over a totally formated disk.

So what is with the Wind 7 preorder disk? Do I have to actually have XP or Vista installed on the disk first? That means I will have to format my disk, then install either XP or Vista and install Windows 7. Takes a lot of time.

Please answer!
Jim

That's exactly--well, maybe--what you have to do. Here's the latest from some tech guy at the Presales and Licensing Department (quote):
"On a further note, we contacted the Presales and Licensing Department to ask this question for you. Apparently, they provided me the proper information. If you are purchasing a full retail Windows 7 product, you will not need to have an existing operating system on your machine. If you are purchasing an upgrade, then you would need an existing operating system on your machine."
Of course, this still doesn't answer the question of whether or not, during the installation of Win 7 upgrade on a fully-formatted disc, a notice pops up saying, in effect, show us your proof that you have a previous OS by popping in a XP disc.
If you'll look at my previous thread, you'll see that installing my licensed copy of XP on a formatted disc and inserting my licensed copy of Win 98 as proof of a previous OS is what I intend to do when I get the Win 7 upgrade. As far as I know, this is a legal way of putting Win 7 on my computer.