Free Anti-Virus .vs. Purchased Anti-Virus

Discussion in 'Windows 7 Software' started by oneextraid, Jul 24, 2009.

  1. Joe S

    Joe S Excellent Member

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    What a simpleton he is I guess he's been lucky enough not to click on a hacked site and the article is recent 2005. Suit yourself you're the one that will have to reload system and deal with destroyed files when you get hit.
    Joe
     
  2. fjgold

    fjgold New Member

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    Not if but when.
    Clicking the link brought an alert from Web of Trust about a popup advert.
    It is true that being cautious is important but part of being cautious is installing robust security
    software.
    Back to the topic, I use Avast! pro although there is a free version.
    I tried Avast! free when my former A\V became unusable for me.
    I liked so much that I bought a subscription.
    Avast! just released a major update that includes a sandbox feature and a Web of Trust like rating system.
    They did so without messing up their former usability like my previous A\V did when they did a major software upgrade.
    I also use Javacool's Spywareblaster to provide a very robust hostsfile.
    I don't use Avast!'s sandbox feature because I already use Sandboxie Pro to sandbox all my internet apps like browsers and email clients.
    Web of Trust warns me of untrustworthy sites and my A\V has prevented me from clicking on a bad site more than once.
    Sandboxie would prevent any baddie from reaching my system but it is nice to be alerted to the baddies.
    No software firewall but my ISP provided modem\router is a NAT device so I'm protected from
    unsolicited incoming traffic.
    Steve Gibson of Gibson Research Co. has a neat site that will test your machine for stealth (all ports not responding) and mine is completely stealthed.
    http://www.grc.com/x/ne.dll?rh1dkyd2

    BTW: tell Steve Gibson you don't need an A\V and see what he says.

    There are millions of machines out there that are infected without their owners knowledge, many by drivebys.
    These machines are part of a huge net of spam bots and a large part of the present spam epidemic.

    We owe it to each other to do what we can to reduce any chance our machines can be the next spam bots.
     
    #22 fjgold, Mar 1, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2011
  3. Andrea Borman

    Andrea Borman Honorable Member

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    I,that is myself-Andrea Borman, I am a SHE, not a he,so I am a girl. But I do not even know if the man who wrote that article I read on the Internet is a very experienced computer geek or not.

    It is a bit like that computer agony site- Ask Leo,where people ask their computer questions. I do not know if this Leo is a real person or not.

    But anyway in all of the time I have had my laptops,I have never had a virus or malware on them.It is not Windows that is open to the threat of viruses. It is Internet Explorer and a lot of people are still using IE6 and IE7,which is open for attack by virus and computer hacks.And IE8 and IE9 is no better. And I do have some old web browsers I am using on my computer-Netscape Navigater 9,which is based on Firefox 2. But Netscape is not IE6, so it is not the same thing.

    And it is safe to use an earlier or previous version of software,like a previous version of ICQ and Splitcam that I am currently using. The reason why I have not upgraded ICQ 7.2 to ICQ 7.4, is that in 7.4 the sound is not working in video chat,but it is in 7.2. I have come across a lot of software,where the current version works fine and I am happy with it. Then they upgrade it and the new version does not work or there is a fault in it.

    This has got nothing to do with our computers but the software itself. That is why some people want to roll back to the previous version. Another example is Windows Media Player 12 in which a lot of people do not like. So they uninstall WMP 12 and install WMP 11 or WMP 10 instead.

    But on Windows 7 it is difficult to do this,unless you know how to remove all traces of WMP 12 from the registry, and to do this you have have to know what you are doing.

    But when I removed WMP I only deleted the WMP file in programs on C drive nothing else. Like I did with IE to uninstall it. But no,you do not need a virus protection program on Windows. So it is up to you if you have it or not. Andrea Borman.
     
  4. Trouble

    Trouble Noob Whisperer

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    This is not only erroneous information, it could also prove to be harmful to novice members or visitors who might assume this to be accurate and valuable information. There are many, many attack vectors for virii and malware to invade your computer and while IE may indeed be one, it is certainly far from the only one. Instant messaging programs, social network environments, P2P / So called music sharing sites, other file sharing/hosting sites, we even had a recent issue with ImageShack hosting a bit of scareware. Thumb drives, floppy drives, and so on and so on. Of course you need a good AntiVirus product on a Windows based machine it's the biggest portion of the install base globally so it's likewise the biggest portion of the attack target. But it should also be noted, that while not as prevalent other OSs may also be targets, if not now then perhaps soon. It's just a matter of Cost vs. Rewards, if I'm going to spend a lot of my time generating code, where will my code receive the most play. Duh!
     
    3 people like this.
  5. Highwayman

    Highwayman Extraordinary Member

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    Quite agree with you there Trouble, to condone not using any Anti-virus and anti-malware applications beyond the worthless windows defender, is tantamount to propaganda for the hackers that make the viruses and is extremely damaging to the general forum reader who may accept this view unwittingly. The forums are the right place to air your personal views Andrea, but whatever it is based upon in this instance is clearly wrong. We, the helpers of the site, must always point this out, not so much as an attack on you, but to make sure the noob community don't follow the bad advice.
     
    #25 Highwayman, Mar 1, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2011
  6. Joe S

    Joe S Excellent Member

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    Andrea
    I was talking about the clown that wrote the article you posted. I have seen some helpful stuff from Ask Leo.
    Joe
     
  7. Andrea Borman

    Andrea Borman Honorable Member

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    So this Leo in the ask Leo is a real person? Anyway I am still not going to change my mind about not having an anti virus protection program on my computer. I am still not going to install anti virus software on my computer as I do not need it. I dislike security settings on my computer.

    Windows gives you a choice about how you run your computer. Unlike Linux,which does not. On Linux you have to log in with a password and enter it every time you change settings on your computer. And I even had to enter my password just to change my own battery settings on Linux. How stupid is that? But on Linux there is no way to remove the password or disable this annoying feature.

    But on Windows you do not have to have a password if you do not want one. Even when you set up Windows for the first time or you have to reset it again after you have restored to factory settings. Windows never asks you set up a password. All it asks you to do is create a name for your computer,which you must do-for example, Andrea. Then where it says create a password,if you do not want a password,just leave that bit blank and click forward to go to the next bit of Windows set up. Then you just tick where it says accept the terms and conditions and enter your wireless broadband network key numbers and letters. Which is on the back of your router and you are done.

    I do not have a password on any of my Windows accounts on any of my computers.

    And after the restrictions of Linux,it was sheer heaven to be back on Windows and not have to have a password or have to keep entering one. Every time I did something on my own computer and on Windows I have an Administrator account also called the User account. There is a second,hidden Administrator account that is can be enabled with the command prompt but I have not used that or enabled it.

    For Windows updates I have it set to never install updates. But that is because I do not want Windows to install updates without telling me or unwanted ones. On the setting never install updates you just go to Windows updates, and then check for updates, when you want to in your own time and then Windows installs the updates that you choose to install.

    Actually I got this idea to check and install updates manually from Linux Mint. Where there,on Linux there is no automatic updating,you have to check for updates yourself and then install them. On Linux,that idea is good but I still had to enter my password on Linux just to check for updates. Unlike on Windows where you don't have to.

    Then there is the User account control but I have turned that off as this is an annoying feature. Windows Firewall that sometimes asks you if you want to allow a new program to be used on your computer,is turned on and set to home network. And most of my programs,the web browsers and media plays are on the list of allowed items. But you can turn off Windows Firewall as well if you want to but I have not.

    Then you have got Windows defender,which is pre-installed in Windows 7 and Windows Vista but not on Windows XP. But Windows XP users can download and install Windows defender from the Microsoft website. And there is also the additional tool,Malicious Software Removal Tool-MRT. Which is installed though updates and can also be downloaded from Microsoft if you don't already have it. Windows XP users can also download this tool.

    And my laptop is a home computer,I do not connect to it with remote desktop connection and don't take it out of the house and use public Wi Fi in coffee shops or other public places. So the chances of some one hacking my computer are very small.

    It is true I download a lot of software,which is web browsers,media players and chat messengers. And there is a risk here if I downloaded from third party websites,that are not genuine. That I could get a virus,to avoid this it is best to download for example Firefox from the actual website or from a reputable site like C.Net. As if you go to an unknown website you could be downloading some thing you think is Firefox but is not,it is something else-malware.

    But I always check what it is I am downloading and download from reputable sites,my chances of getting a virus are very small. It is true that I could be the unlucky one who gets a virus but because I only install software from genuine sites,it is only a small chance.

    I just don't like the idea of having an ant virus program,when it might take over my computer. And I have already got windows defender and MRT. Which are very good and reliable. That is why they have been bundled with Windows. So they must be there for a reason. Andrea Borman.
     
    #27 Andrea Borman, Mar 1, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2011
  8. fjgold

    fjgold New Member

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    "Ask Leo" is Leo Nottenbom, a former MS employee.
    I subscribe to his weekly newsletter and look forward to Tuesday when it arrives in my inbox.
    I very much value his expertise and his opinion.

    I also value Steve Gibson's of Gibson Research Co.opinion and expertise and even own a license to his Spinrite HDD repair\benchmark app.
    Steve does a weekly podcast called Security Now! with Leo Laporte from the old Tech TV program.
    Entertaining and informative.
    GRC | Security Now! Episode Archive  

    All the past podcasts are archived on the above site, all the way back to episode #1 in Aug. 2005.

    Steve Gibson and Leo Laporte are good friends and work well together.
    Every 4th episode is listeners question time.



    These guys are pros as well as many here are and very helpful.
     
  9. Mike

    Mike Windows Forum Admin
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    It is a serious risk to run without an anti-virus.

    Also, free versions are generally, not as effective, in any way, as paid anti-virus. I always recommend ESET Smart Security for a reason. There have been links posted by spammers on this site that have sent people off to fake versions of software like VLC Player. In these instances Microsoft Security Essentials could not detect that the executable was virus-laden. ESET Smart Security picked it up almost immediately, and it has picked up viruses in virtual machines on me in the past. I would suggest going the paid route.

    The BIG Problem

    There is a common and widely held belief that computers which are unused but left on require little to no anti-virus or maintenance whatsoever. This has resulted in an army of millions of computers around the world twisted into "botnets". These systems have been completely compromised and traverse the Internet sending out spam, junk, and other garbage. Many of the users of these systems don't even know this is going on.

    Better to go with pro-active, paid protection. And if you can't afford it, look up: AV-Comparatives - Independent Tests of Anti-Virus Software - Welcome to AV-Comparatives.org

    Magazines are often paid to write editorials and reviews on anti-virus products, and many of the "big" ones, i.e. Symantec likes to take out enormous full page ads to explain how great their software is while computers are being laid to waste. It has always been my experience that anti-virus solutions like Symantec and McAfee have been hot on marketing and cold on heuristics and definitions.

    When we talk about anti-virus software, we no longer deal in just viruses, but in the ability of the software suite to do what I would consider the following:

    1. Identify and quarantine viruses, spyware, malware, trojans, rootkits, adware, and other non-virus potential threats.
    2. Prevent unauthorized network access using pro-active heuristic scanning on incoming and outgoing traffic.
    3. Provide the end-user with a means of accessing threat assessments and data related to possible threats.
    4. Do all of the above without turning the entire computer into "Mr. Norton's Extremely Slow Computer"

    With Symantec, we are dealing with a software company that had to change the name of its software because it had such a bad reputation of completely taking over the computer and slowing it to a complete crawl. While that problem has been eliminated now in End Point and later versions, it still embeds itself so deeply in the operating system, I cannot sanction it myself.

    Personally, the only two anti-virus products I trust, commercially, and know for a fact that they do a better job from experience are ESET Smart Security, NOD32, and Kaspersky. I used to swear by NOD32, but after deploying their Smart Security suite, I would not go back to the simple anti-virus.

    These days you need to be covered for potential threats. The biggest problem is phishing attacks (fake websites that purport to be something they are not). In the area of these products, we have heuristics and definitions.

    Definitions are programmed by the anti-virus manufacturer with instructions about threats and how the program can detect and eliminate them. These definition files are sent as updated to the anti-virus.

    Heuristics determine how well the software is at identifying and mitigating these threats "in the wild", and with existing definitions, so even if a new unknown threat exhibits behavior that would damage your computer, it will prevent that attack. So if an unknown virus came out of nowhere, we have heuristics to back it up if definitions aren't available. Of course heuristics are also used to interpret definitions.

    To understand why anti-virus products are needed, we need to go back to the Blaster Worm debacle as well as the Code Red issue. Look up both of these and see the damage they caused. After this, it seems like free anti-viruses became the norm, and even Microsoft published their own free anti-virus.

    I would not say Microsoft Security Essentials is a bad product. For the price (0), it is excellent. The same can be said for AVG and Avast. However, for a real comparison of anti-viruses, you must use an independent lab to find out how these products have performed. AV-Comparatives gives you that information. You will not find it in PC Magazine or some other place where paid advertising is the order of the day.

    From my experience, NOD32 (and thereby ESET Smart Security), has been the most consistent security solution that does not eat up enormous resources. But many of you will have different experiences. If I did not have the money for ESET Smart Security I would use Microsoft Security Essentials and Firefox or Chrome for added security.

    So check out AV-Comparatives and AV-Test for this information.

    The landscape is always changing. A few years ago, BitDefender seemed like the best one ever, and then it just dropped off the radar with people getting hit. This was mostly with XP systems, and you certainly are more secure using Windows 7. I simply cannot fathom the idea of using no anti-virus at all. This would be a major mistake. And by all means, consider a paid, full security suite to protect your hardware/software investment. If you think about it, this is what you are doing. Not to mention protecting, maybe, years of work as well.
     
  10. Andrea Borman

    Andrea Borman Honorable Member

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    Yes,it is true that if you download software from the Internet,like media players and web browsers you can go onto the wrong website. That claims it is a harmless download for a web browser or media player,and it can even look perfectly innocent, but it is really a virus or malware.

    I have got VLC media player but I got my download from C Net which is a safe site and I have also downloaded from the original. websites that host the software. The Firefox website for example.

    So as long as I stick to that I should be safe. And even if I did have anti virus software I could still get a virus.

    I just do not like the idea of an anti virus program taking control of my computer and giving me false readings. Anti virus programs have been known to tell people that an item of software has a virus,when it really has not. And then it removes the program all without your consent. And can also block access to certain programs, and I just don't like that.

    Of course this is just what I read up on Microsoft Security Essentials. But I think that the scans I have got from Windows defender and Malicious Software Removal Tool-MRT are accurate. And they say I do not have any computer viruses or malware.

    Windows defender and MRT will also take action by uninstalling the infected software and virus if they find any. But they do it in a low key way and will not block access to your computer,or stop you reinstalling it again. For example if Windows defender or MRT found a virus in your Firefox it would remove that and the Firefox.

    But after the problem has been sorted out and the virus removed you can install Firefox again.These two tools will not stop you doing that,but an anti virus program could.

    When I first got my Netbook it had Norton Security put on there by the makers HP, and that was the first thing I uninstalled. I was glad to see it go.

    When I did my factory restore I did the full factory restore with the first Netbook, and all that horrible HP stuff was put back on again. And I spent hours getting rid of it.

    So with the second Netbook I chose the minimized image restore,where it does the factory restore but just reinstalls the original copy of Windows put on there in the factory. Windows 7 Starter, along with drivers,Internet Explorer,Windows Media Player and all the essential software needed to run Windows. But not all of HP's software,so I never got Norton Security again. Which I would have removed anyway.

    And when recently I got my third Netbook,this time I knew better. I let it run the first time set up and after it was complete. I did a minimum factory restore,which just re installed the factory installed Windows 7 Starter,with the vital Windows software. But not the HP software.

    I was not going to clean off all that unwanted stuff again. And then after that, I was able to upgrade to Windows 7 Professional.


    But I have never, ever, had,installed, or run any anti virus program on any of my computers. And I am not going to change my mind about this.

    I am sticking with Windows defender and MRT. I like those tools. Andrea Borman.
     
  11. stueycaster

    stueycaster Millennium Celebration Award Winner
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    Yaayy Mike!! I've been a very loyal ESET user for almost 6 years now. I've never caught a virus in all that time, it has blocked quite a few threats and my system has always run free and easy. No other antivirus runs so light on system resources. :D
     
  12. Super Sarge

    Super Sarge New Member

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    I have been using Microsoft Security Essentials for almost 2 years now on my Primary home machine, I also use puchased version of Super Anti-Spyware, free version of Malware Bytes Free version of SpyBot Search and Destroy and Java Cools Spyware Blaster. I have not been infected, The AV caught one deleted it and quarantined the virus. Since 19993 I can count on one hand excluding the thumb the number of times something nasty tried to infect my primary machine/s, The Various Av programs I have run and other detection programs have always caught the nasties. I also Practice safe surfing and never open e-mail unless I am confident of what is being sent, and since my e-mail; is scanned during download by the AV, I have never been infected in this manner.
     
  13. Andrea Borman

    Andrea Borman Honorable Member

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    On Windows 7 we do have some protection against viruses and malware. And as I already mentioned we have Windows defender and Malicious Software Removal Tool-MRT for short. And they are very good tools and the scans are accurate. So there is no need panic and rushing to download anti virus programs,that are not necessary,for an ordinary home computer.

    If you are an office or run a public company such as an Internet cafe of library,where all different people are coming in and using the computers,or are a company office. Then yes,you would probably need an anti virus program then.

    But I live by myself in a flat and I never take my laptops out of the house and nobody uses the computer but me,so only I have access to it. And even if you do have friends or family using your home computer, the chances of getting a computer virus are very small. So how can you get a virus?

    And even if you did have an anti virus program,that does not always work anyway,so I read. They do not have Windows defender and MRT bundled with Windows XP like they do with Windows Vista and Windows 7. But Windows XP users can download Windows defender and MRT direct from the Microsoft website. Andrea Borman.
     
  14. Super Sarge

    Super Sarge New Member

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    Well we will be here if you ever get you first virus, I would recommend though that at least you run MIcro$oft Security Essentials takes very little space is quite good. Since it includes or does the job of Window defender it will turn of Windows Defender if you install it. It has been rated one of the top 3 Free Anti Virus programs out there.
    Do you have other computers in your house? If so do you run them through a router which is another form of protection.
     
  15. Highwayman

    Highwayman Extraordinary Member

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    starting to think you are a luddite due to the lack of understanding from the many explanations of WHY those two apps you keep bleating on about are most definately NOT of any use and are only adding to a false sense of security, as for how can you get a virus... well lets see;
    1. MRT only runs if you tell it manually, there is no automatic self monitoring or cleaning etc ..if you bothered to read on Microsofts OWN pages about the product you will find the following statement of fact "The Microsoft Malicious Software Removal Tool does not replace an antivirus product. It is strictly a post-infection removal tool. Therefore, we strongly recommend that you install and use an up-to-date antivirus product" post infect meaning AFTER you have got a trojan (which frankly you wont ever know because it isn't a resident task) when it's possible it's already shot it's payload of malware into the system etc.

    2.Windows defender, I've personally tested this app for many years and despite having it run resident on startup it has not caught a single damn trojan or virus etc once even in 7 years it's been available with any amount of updates, yet i'd say my antivirus tools have picked them out hidden even on well known websites such as facebook and youtube quite often, they weren't false positives either as had samples confirmed by the incident reports to microsoft. To even think it works perfectly because it never find anything is quite the dumbest reasoning I've ever heard, if anything that is more the sign of a worthless application since none of the top specialist applications can claim such high levels of protection.

    3. "Anti virus programs don't always work..." well lets look at that statement...pick any app from the top 10 and they usually have to be certified to about 90%+ detection rate, of that about 50% are the usual suspects that lamers keep using to hack with, then the remaining amount which are newly written so wont have any downloadable fingerprints for that have to be found with hueristic scanning, which is where all the high end apps show themselves for what they are really worth. Even the worst gambler in the world would not favour the odds of losing data or having important data stolen when using nothing but the 2 weakest apps that come with the OS as the be all end all of security, it's frankly amatuerish advice to even suggest that no protection is better than one that works 99% of the time, especially if the computer is in any way connected to the internet, since on a broadband connection the amount of time to be hacked can be far less than a second by even the most ordinary methods, which you don't seem the slightest bit concerned about???

    To sum it up, the only folk I'd think would insist on telling people not to use security applications that are known to work, would be the very hackers making the viruses themselves or people that don't understand the subject at all, the second option would be where I'd put Andrea in this regard, since MRT and Windows Defender are NOT anti-virus applications, they are anti malware/trojan, which is a totally different subject to viruses, although the better Anti-Virus applications do scan for both these days. We now live in a world were cyber-crime is 100x more profitable and harder to trace compared to traditional crimes, and in that same regard the odds of being hacked/virused etc has also grown to match that, which largely goes unreported compared to say street crimes as it viewed as somehow being less important, until a nuclear powerstation gets hacked or a few billion pounds goes missing from the economy, at which point the "Ignorance is bliss" attitude suddenly goes pop!

    It's about time you lose the "it'll never happen to me" attitude, because frankly IT WILL and it will keep happening until you do something about it, seriously the only time you don't need an anti-virus app (with daily or weekly updates) is on a closed system that will never have any software added to it, never connect to any internet or wireless or external device, i've personally seen original DVD movies, games, music, all from legitimate retail factory presses with infections over the years.
     
    #35 Highwayman, Mar 3, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2011
    1 person likes this.
  16. Highwayman

    Highwayman Extraordinary Member

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    Anti-Virus.

    Think that sums the point up
     
    1 person likes this.
  17. stueycaster

    stueycaster Millennium Celebration Award Winner
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    Well said Highwayman. Good job.
     
  18. stueycaster

    stueycaster Millennium Celebration Award Winner
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    I recently removed 5 viruses from a computer owned by a friend of a friend of mine. She had an antivirus program but she didn't have it set to update. I've become the local go-to guy with my friends at work when they have computer problems. Their problems are always viruses.
     
    #38 stueycaster, Mar 3, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2011
  19. Andrea Borman

    Andrea Borman Honorable Member

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    Yes,my Internet Provider is BT.I have got BT home Hub. I think home hub and router are the same thing. I can connect to the Internet on wireless broadband or wired broadband. My broadband connection is connected through my telephone line so it is not mobile broadband. And I have three Netbooks and they all run through the same Internet connection. But I was not aware that having telephone broadband played a part in protecting your computer. That is interesting.

    And although I can connect to the Internet wirlessly as most people with laptops do nowadays on Windows without any problems. On most brands of Linux,I cannot.Only on wired broadband,except in Linux Mint. Where I have to install the driver and then activate. Then after I restart my computer I can then connect wirlessly. But I have to start off one wired broadband first to activate the drivers.

    And it is worth mentioning that there are no virus protection programs on Linux. So what to they do if they want to use an anti virus program? Andrea Borman.
     
    #39 Andrea Borman, Mar 3, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2011
  20. Highwayman

    Highwayman Extraordinary Member

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    AVG and AVAST both released one for linux, for free... maybe a nano second of research on google next time?
     

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