One hand doesn't know what the other is doing...

Discussion in 'Windows 8 Help and Support' started by rborge729, Dec 9, 2012.

  1. rborge729

    rborge729 New Member

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    I must admit, I was really excited about Windows8. I believed that the giant had awoken and that integration with mobile and tablet platforms had finally arrived. I eagerly updated my Win 7 machine the day it was released. I have now been using it on a regular basis and "can make it work". It amazes me, however, how poorly the metro and desktop interfaces interact (if at all).

    Example: I installed Dragon dictation software onto the desktop (no metro app available). If I open up IE on the desktop, I can dictate successfully. If, however, I open up any Metro app (email, IE etc), dictation doesn't work! Really? Metro appears to be "bolted on" to the desktop OS without any clear communication between the two.

    As a lifelong early adopter, I have resisted the temptation to bash the Win8 user experience. I am patient and willing to give new things a chance and to learn "new tricks". Such experiences, however, leave me scratching my head. Is this really the OS Microsoft had in mind? At best, it seems Beta to me. Lets hope that it evolves or I suspect that it is doomed.

    Rick
     
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  2. kemical

    kemical Windows Forum Admin
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    Hi Rick,

    I'm sure as drivers and apps mature we'll see better functionality overall. IMO win 8 really does have a next gen feel although as we both know sometimes early adopters have to pay the price for being the first onboard.
     
  3. Medico

    Medico Senior Member

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    It might actually be up to Dragon to update their app to work on Win 8 Style UI. Perhaps they will come out with an app. This might be a nice suggestion to put to the Dragon developers.
     
  4. MikeHawthorne

    MikeHawthorne Essential Member
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    Hi

    I'm finding it a lot easier to just ignore the Metro UI all together.

    Windows 8 runs great from the desktop but I keep having problems when I try and run the same things as apps.

    My Windows live mail won't work as an app but works fine from the desktop.
    That's only one example, I'm finding that things I download and install on the desktop work fine but the apps don't.

    I tried to install the app that includes Free Cell, in one place it says it's installed, in another it says it's not.
    Either way I can't get it to run.

    If people who have been using computers as long as I have are having problems what about the newbie?

    The good news is that you can install Classic Shell and it runs great, fast and stable.

    Mike
     
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  5. Medico

    Medico Senior Member

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    I almost think you are better off keeping the two UIs separate. Desktop apps should be used on the desktop (many of us spend most of our time on the desktop) and Win 8 Style Apps should be used from that UI. There seem to be few apps that can be opened from both, and those just do not seem to work as I want on the Win 8 Style UI (IE 10 for example)

    If you are accustomed to an app on the desktop, then use it there. This works well for me.
     
  6. rborge729

    rborge729 New Member

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    I agree that Metro can be "ignored" or the 2 UI's kept separate, however, therein lies my point. IMO, it is beyond belief that an OS would be designed without functional continuity throughout. How does MS expect new users to understand that applications installed on the desktop don't work in Metro apps? For that matter, how can I explain to my wife that there are actually 2 versions of IE (can anyone think of another example of such an implementation)? If MS gives my blessing to install desktop applications, it has the responsibility to ensure that they work in all areas of the OS. If not, get rid of the desktop altogether. In its current form, calling it beta is being generous.
     
  7. MikeHawthorne

    MikeHawthorne Essential Member
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    Hi

    My e-mail is a good example of where they are falling short.

    The e-mail app won't show my e-mail because it doesn't support the format it's in.
    This is my ISP, Comcast e-mail that I've had for years, and years.

    Why would I want to change to another e-mail when Windows Live Mail supports my Comcast account.

    In Windows live all I had to do it type in my address and my password and it's all set up and ready to go.

    the POP3 protocol has been around for ever.
    But it's just like Microsoft to ignore the fact that many e-mail servers still use it and only support IMAP.

    Why would they decide to ignore it, how hard could it be to make the mail app support both, as Live Mail and pretty much every other mail software that I've ever seen does?

    When I tried to use the video app, I started getting messages that said it can't display this type of file.
    Windows Media Player plays these files, I just wrote the app off and went back to using media player!

    If Windows 8 really made you use all these apps I'd be back running Windows 7 right now.

    Fortunately it doesn't and you can run anything you could run in earlier versions of Windows.

    But I feel for newbs who get a new computer with Windows 8 and don't have a clue what's going on.

    It should have been clear that there were 2 interfaces one for tablets and one for PCs to start with, and you should have been able to set your computer up that way without 3rd party applications.

    The first time you start it it should have asked do you want to run the PC or Tablet interface.

    Mike
     
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  8. davehc

    davehc Microsoft MVP
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    I didn't really want to be involved in this thread, as the arguments tend to be repetitive. But, I became confused by the terms being used. I am not pointing fingers, and do not disagree with one or two of the comments but, to clarify (for me!9 what do the posters mean by "Apps". Do you mean the pure "metro" apps or something else? In this context I will not refer to the OP. Dragon is possibly a separate problem.
    If I may take the liberty of a couple of quotes.
    Post #4. "My Windows live mail won't work as an app but works fine from the desktop" Could you expand on that., Mike. I have Windows Live Mail pinned in the Metro screen. It works fine from there. Maybe I misunderstand you?? Cant comment on FreeCell. Which one is that, Mike. I would like try it and see if I get the problem.(?)

    Post #5 "There seem to be few apps that can be opened from both, and those just do not seem to work as I want on the Win 8 Style UI (IE 10 for example)"
    All the "apps" I have installed on my Windows 7 computer, I have now installed on Windows 8 and pinned in the Metro. They are all working 100% from there. 36 of them, mostly little used, but there for test and comment. I agree with your comment on IE10. The Metro style does not suit my way of operating on the web to any degree, so I use the desktop version.

    Post #6. "How does MS expect new users to understand that applications installed on the desktop don't work in Metro apps? "

    Again, not sure what you mean? As I have just commented, I have not yet found a desktop app that will not open from a pinned item in the Metro.
    For that matter, how can I explain to my wife that there are actually 2 versions of IE "

    Show her both, and let her decide which she wants as a default.

    "If MS gives my blessing to install desktop applications, it has the responsibility to ensure that they work in all areas of the OS. "

    Again. Which ones are giving you problems?

    Post #7. To be fair, I have tried, well before Windows 8 was even a dream, other Email clients and have rejected them all, for various personal reasons. Outlook Express suited me but, when it was made redundant, I moved on, and liked, Live Mail. One swift tryouy of the Metro mail application did not show me any merit in moving over to it, so I remain with Live mail - works for me. It is a shock that Ms have ignored Pop3 protocol. It must surely have been a total oversight on someone's part. I am totally unaware of how Email systems work in the US, but possibly Pop3 is becoming old hat?
    Thinking back, For real newbies, I am sure that, even as long ago as XP or before, after installation it must have been difficult to assess how to get things going, or install third party apps. From that point of view, assuming Windows 8 newbies have had previous experience with earlier OSs, I cannot think of anything simpler than clicking a large icon marked "Desktop", and finding themselves in more familiar surroundings. Yes. at that point, it has been a big mistake of MS not to have the old start menu readily available.

    Mikes last sentence would have been an excellent improvement. Similarly, from my own working point of view, I would have been happier, if I was returned to the metro screen after closing an app, as I now use that as my Start menu. I understand that, in the promised large SP next year, this will be an option. I know that it is a simple matter to click the Windows key and be back there - no more of an ordeal than, in Windows 7, clicking the start orb to get back into the start menu, I suppose.
     
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  9. Medico

    Medico Senior Member

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    I agree, I wrote my comment poorly. My point really was that I do not like the way the Win 8 Style versions of apps (browsers) work. in the case of IE 10, I have my system set up to always open in the desktop version because the Win 8 Style version does not support add-ons that I use (Last Pass for example).

    I guess my point was that the Win 8 Style versions of apps that have both a desktop version and a Win 8 Style version do not seem to have all the features of their desktop versions, and are thus stunted in their use.

    Yes, any app that is installed on the desktop will also pin a tile to the Win 8 Style Start Screen. Most of these I have removed. Even those that remain, I almost never use as I am almost always on the desktop. These apps however are not Win 8 style apps, they are desktop apps that have a shortcut tile on the Win 8 Style Start Screen.
     
  10. davehc

    davehc Microsoft MVP
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    Another point I would like to make, pointing the finger, this time, at MS. The boast was that they would monitor and approve all proposed Metro Apps. This is totally out of control. Many come back with "no longer available. half are total amateur crap. The whole store has become so large and choosy, it is easier, now, to google for something you wish to experiment with.
     
  11. rborge729

    rborge729 New Member

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    Re: "How does MS expect new users to understand that applications installed on the desktop don't work in Metro apps? "

    Windows Compatibility Center (Microsoft.com) states that Dragon Naturally Speaking is Win8 compatible. It installs properly and works perfectly for all applications (not Metro apps) run in the desktop environment. When a Microsoft Metro App is running (to remove any discussion regarding the quality of 3rd party Metro apps), it is non-functional. Why? Do the 2 UI's fail to share information? How is this acceptable to the masses who are expected to purchase the product?

    I installed iCloud (works perfectly on Win7) to sync my address book and calendars. It works fine with products on the desktop (Outlook for example) but is non-functional in the Contacts and Calendar Metro Apps.

    IMO, if the 2 UI's don't play well together, than MS should make up its mind. Metro or desktop only.
     
  12. Medico

    Medico Senior Member

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    I think part of the problem is that more advanced Win 8 Style apps have not been released yet. I agree many of the Win 8 Style apps are very basic, at times almost childish in nature. But then again look at many of the apps in Android and iOS. Do many of them seem very basic, almost childish in nature as well?

    MS appears to have the same problem as those other OSs. Many of the apps do not have a lot to offer.

    I think they play fine together. A tile for a desktop app sits calmly on the Win 8 Style Start Screen, and when clicked opens the desktop app it is associated with. It was developed for the desktop and thus is run on the desktop.

    As I stated earlier, those few apps that have both versions, the Win 8 Style version seems somewhat stunted. I do not know if this is because the developers have not yet put enough effort into them or the OS is preventing them from being full featured. It seems there are more desktop apps that are having Win 8 Style versions in development. I hope these are not as stunted as those presently available.
     
  13. MikeHawthorne

    MikeHawthorne Essential Member
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    Hi

    What I mean is that when I click the mail app on the Metro screen it can't connect to my e-mail account.

    I don't mean I get an error message, it logs in and says "No Messages the Last 2 Weeks".
    I have had dozens of messages so why can't it show them.

    I'm told that it's because my mail account is POP3 and it doesn't support that.
    My question is why, it's the only kind of mail account I've ever had?

    I'm not talking about linking Live Mail to the Metro start screen.
    I don't have any reason to do that because it starts fine from the desktop, and I'm not using the Metro screen at all anymore, it never shows up on my monitor.

    But the Metro Mail app is unusable for me.

    And as I said, I'm highly involved with video.
    The Metro video app, won't play my files, but Windows Media player plays everything.

    Plus it appears that most of these app have fewer features then the old software like Live Mail, or Media Player.
    It's like I have to trade usability for style.

    I'll stick with what works.

    I don't mean that I hate Windows 8, I'm just glad that I can still use it the way I want to.

    It's easy to see that Microsoft is on a trend to make their OS more like Apple where you use what they want you to use and nothing else. And they will continue to generate income from the OS by constantly selling you updates that you can now get for free.

    Mike
     
    #13 MikeHawthorne, Dec 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2012
  14. Medico

    Medico Senior Member

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    Someone told me that Pop is very old and is being phased out. I wonder if this is why MS does not support Pop in the Win 8 Style Mail App. I personally hate the UI in the mail app anyone, so no big loss for me. I also have a Pop account from my ISP.

    I just use WLM on the desktop. There is also a tile for WLM on the Win 8 Style Start Screen that also opens the desktop WLM, but I seldom use this tile.
     
  15. MikeHawthorne

    MikeHawthorne Essential Member
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    Hi

    I really don't see what the advantage of the Start Screen is.
    As far as I can see it only makes things harder to use.

    I suppose that people who start out on it will love it but it just seems like always adding an extra step to do everything to me.

    Mike
     
    #15 MikeHawthorne, Dec 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2012
  16. rborge729

    rborge729 New Member

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    "I agree many of the Win 8 Style apps are very basic, at times almost childish in nature. But then again look at many of the apps in Android and iOS."

    Lets not forget, that apps for iOS are for a phone or tablet, not a desktop computer. "Apps" downloaded to a desktop Mac computer are full featured programs.

    I wouldn't mind primitive apps if their level of prominence in the OS was equal to "widgets" (sideshow, distraction, not the main attraction). Unfortunately for Win8, the Start screen and apps are the main show. Everything about the OS funnels you back to the Start screen and the OS virtually demands that you obtain new content from the Windows Store. With that level of prominence, Metro Apps should be better.
     
  17. VegasGuy

    VegasGuy New Member

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    I totally agree with ignoring the Metro UI all together, I tried Classic shell and went the Start 8 road. I boot to the desktop, hot corners gone, charms bar gone. I do not use any of those apps anyway, as I've never figured out what the point of them were on a PC. yes a tablet I understand, but the apps make no sense to me, when I can do what they do better on the desktop. Hell I don't even update the things. I use my systems as though that metro crap doesn't even exist. Even though this doesn't stop other annoying issues that windows 8 has, at least the ugly awkward UI problem is solved.

     
  18. Medico

    Medico Senior Member

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    So every app in the Mac app store is a full featured app. Hmmmm, hard to believe. Yes there may be quite a few full featured apps available for Mac. I suspect the same will be said for Win 8 as it grows older. Win 8 is less than 2 months old. I have heard of apps in progress that will be more full featured, but there are few yet that interest me. I have even heard of a few more full featured apps, although I have not tried any as of now.
     
  19. Pandaz3

    Pandaz3 Honorable Member

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    I too was a early adopter. I downloaded to my main desktop and my laptop. Things were quite frustrating for awhile. I had Win 7 Ultimate before and had great internet connectivity. Now not so much. I have a wired connection on my desktop and am using IE10 and Chrome Clicking on something new, website or forum page sometimes just sits there loading. I have taken to back arrow and then forward arrow to actually get it to work.
    Another thing when I change my desktop wallpaper on my desk machine it takes only a day or to and that wallpaper appears on my laptop desktop. Creepy! I do use the same sign on with both machines but that means things that I thought were local are now on a cloud somewhere. I'm not liking that. kind of makes me feel violated.
     
  20. MikeHawthorne

    MikeHawthorne Essential Member
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    Hi

    I noticed that Google Chrome didn't work the way I was used to on my new computer.
    Pages loaded slowly and I had to click multiple times to get it to respond sometimes.

    Finally I deleted it and installed an older version from a year ago, when I thought it worked great.
    I'm running version, 16.0.912.21 and it works much better.

    It still was able to restore all my short cuts when I logged in.
    Now I just have to watch that it doesn't update.

    I haven't used Internet Explorer in so long I'm not even sure what it looks like anymore.

    I know what you mean about it being kind of spooky when stuff shows up out of nowhere that you didn't think was saved anyplace.
    On the other hand it was nice that all my shortcuts appear out of nowhere and my address book in Live Mail pops up on a new computer all on it's own.

    But it does make you wonder how many people have access to all your data.

    Mike
     
    #20 MikeHawthorne, Dec 17, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 17, 2012

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