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- New York, NY, United States
Windows 8 Windows 8.2 Rumors Likely True: Start Menu Returns
- Thread starter Mike
- Start date
- Joined
- May 25, 2009
- Location
- Ada Michigan
Hi
It's about time, and as it says in the article, "It makes you wonder why Microsoft didn't go with this route to start with".
It made so much sense to make a touch screen, and a mouse and keyboard version, I just don't get what they were thinking.
Since I had to backtrack from version 8.1 to 8 and was going to give it another try in a couple of months when the drivers catch up...
I think I'll just wait how ever long it's going to take and install version 8.2 when it comes along.
I can see a lot of people waiting a little longer to get a new computer when word of this spreads.
I've had to clue in several friends who got new computers recently about how to use Classic Shell.
They really, really hated Metro.
These people aren't geeks like me, they just wanted to turn on their computer and do the things they had been doing in Windows XP or 7, they don't have a clue about how it all works, even though they've been using PCs for years (my wife is a good example).
She uses an iPad, an iPhone, and a Windows 7 laptop, and doesn't have a clue how any of it works, she just knows what buttons to push to get what she wants, and I have to admit can do a lot better on an Apple OS then I can.
Progress is supposed to be about making things easier to use, (I really don't feel that Windows 8 does that). Microsoft should have realised that a logical progression will be a lot more acceptable to most users, then a sudden leap to a totally new concept for people who need to be able to get things done on a timely basis.
Users who are really doing stuff with their computers, want to log in and get to work, not spend days or weeks looking for things that they normally use, and are used to.
Anyway better late then never!
Mike
It's about time, and as it says in the article, "It makes you wonder why Microsoft didn't go with this route to start with".
It made so much sense to make a touch screen, and a mouse and keyboard version, I just don't get what they were thinking.
Since I had to backtrack from version 8.1 to 8 and was going to give it another try in a couple of months when the drivers catch up...
I think I'll just wait how ever long it's going to take and install version 8.2 when it comes along.
I can see a lot of people waiting a little longer to get a new computer when word of this spreads.
I've had to clue in several friends who got new computers recently about how to use Classic Shell.
They really, really hated Metro.
These people aren't geeks like me, they just wanted to turn on their computer and do the things they had been doing in Windows XP or 7, they don't have a clue about how it all works, even though they've been using PCs for years (my wife is a good example).
She uses an iPad, an iPhone, and a Windows 7 laptop, and doesn't have a clue how any of it works, she just knows what buttons to push to get what she wants, and I have to admit can do a lot better on an Apple OS then I can.
Progress is supposed to be about making things easier to use, (I really don't feel that Windows 8 does that). Microsoft should have realised that a logical progression will be a lot more acceptable to most users, then a sudden leap to a totally new concept for people who need to be able to get things done on a timely basis.
Users who are really doing stuff with their computers, want to log in and get to work, not spend days or weeks looking for things that they normally use, and are used to.
Anyway better late then never!
Mike
It is best to read the articles referred to, before speculating. Mary Foley is a little vague, Paul Thurrot expands a little but, unfortunately, as is normal with these two journalists, they refer again to "sources" without amplification. The return of the old menu is still very much in the rumour stage. Windowed apps will be a relief for many, but, for the moment, I am happy with Modernmix, which does it all.
I appreciate Mikes view, regarding "non geeks" - lol. With the help of the Classic and modernmix, users are 100% back in Windows 7, with an improved kernel. But, if a user is not a "nerd", how would that user even begin to know that such helpful programs even exist.
I am not sure why the author in the link posted up the first picture. It is, as far as I am aware, only in his imagination, if it is representative of the forthcoming OS (Threshold/8.2/9). It does seem a bad direction that he shows 28 shortcuts on his traditional screen. I actually have less than that on my modern screen, after customisation.
Anyway, all interesting and good info (we hope) . Fwiw, here are the two articles quoted in the link
http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/further-changes-coming-windows-threshold
http://windowsitpro.com/windows-81/microsoft-windows-big-changes-coming
I appreciate Mikes view, regarding "non geeks" - lol. With the help of the Classic and modernmix, users are 100% back in Windows 7, with an improved kernel. But, if a user is not a "nerd", how would that user even begin to know that such helpful programs even exist.
I am not sure why the author in the link posted up the first picture. It is, as far as I am aware, only in his imagination, if it is representative of the forthcoming OS (Threshold/8.2/9). It does seem a bad direction that he shows 28 shortcuts on his traditional screen. I actually have less than that on my modern screen, after customisation.
Anyway, all interesting and good info (we hope) . Fwiw, here are the two articles quoted in the link
http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/further-changes-coming-windows-threshold
http://windowsitpro.com/windows-81/microsoft-windows-big-changes-coming
Mitchell_A
Essential Member
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2009
I disagree with Mike's comment regarding progress. Progress is not the further simplification of anything, more so the improvment.
Windowed modern apps makes no sense to me - that's what the conventional desktop programs are for. I fully agree MS should have made two versions of the operating system up front. For example, Office on my Surface RT can be a painful experience to use while on the desktop using the touchscreen, even with "touch mode" enabled.
Windowed modern apps makes no sense to me - that's what the conventional desktop programs are for. I fully agree MS should have made two versions of the operating system up front. For example, Office on my Surface RT can be a painful experience to use while on the desktop using the touchscreen, even with "touch mode" enabled.
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catilley1092
Extraordinary Member
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
I for one will be glad to see it. For nearly 2 years (beginning with Windows 8 CP), all that many of us who has ran it from that date (02/29/2012) is "Where's the Start Menu?"
Hopefully this will arrive with 8.2 & this will finally silence many of the naysayers. Many of whom are still clinging onto their nearly 13 year old XP systems & have used this single issue as an excuse NOT to move forward.
Cat
Hopefully this will arrive with 8.2 & this will finally silence many of the naysayers. Many of whom are still clinging onto their nearly 13 year old XP systems & have used this single issue as an excuse NOT to move forward.
Cat
Unfortunately in the corporate world bad ideas go forward because nobody dares to mention the emperor has no clothes on. I've seen a few instances at work where a bad design messed up a good product or made a lot of unnecessary work when there was a simpler solution.
Joe
Joe
catilley1092
Extraordinary Member
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
Very true Joe. I've seen the same at a couple of my former employers.
I'm holding hope that this will pan out, though. There was an article somewhere that I once read during the early preview days, that the code to the Windows 7 Start Menu was actually in there, but not implemented, because the MS developers were hell bent on making this "Metro" (at the time) interface work. Some of the older code for other apps (such as IE) are still there.
One can verify there's "IE5" code in the latest IE, just run the Analyze option with CCleaner & then view results before cleaning. You'll see IE5 code in there.
Screenshot (34).png 
Some feared in the later previews that no Start menu replacements would work with the final release, fortunately it worked out. Some OEM's were discussing including their own versions, though I don't know if it happened or not.
MS needs to do something to rev up Windows sales, sure they'll sell a few more due to the upcoming holidays, but they need to get customers interested in Windows again.
Cat
I'm holding hope that this will pan out, though. There was an article somewhere that I once read during the early preview days, that the code to the Windows 7 Start Menu was actually in there, but not implemented, because the MS developers were hell bent on making this "Metro" (at the time) interface work. Some of the older code for other apps (such as IE) are still there.
One can verify there's "IE5" code in the latest IE, just run the Analyze option with CCleaner & then view results before cleaning. You'll see IE5 code in there.
Screenshot (34).png
Some feared in the later previews that no Start menu replacements would work with the final release, fortunately it worked out. Some OEM's were discussing including their own versions, though I don't know if it happened or not.
MS needs to do something to rev up Windows sales, sure they'll sell a few more due to the upcoming holidays, but they need to get customers interested in Windows again.
Cat
I have to agree with Mitchell's comment,
"Windowed modern apps makes no sense to me - that's what the conventional desktop programs are for"
I use, and am happy with, the Modern screen as my start menu, so cannot fully support arguments in favour of the return of the start menu. But that is a personal choice. But, I recently reinstalled the Classic. You have to take my word for it, but I found clicking through a a couple or more layers in order to get what I wanted, quite irritating. Even should they reintroduce the legacy start menu, I will not be using it.
But the so-called "Apps"? What exactly is the point of them
Whilst efforts are being made, now, to have them windowed, hard as I try, I cannot find any reason to use a full app, rather than its desktop counterpart. Further, with guidance from MS, as well as other contributors, there have ben many tutorials on how to actually write an App. The result has been a flood of very small and, in the majority of cases, useless utilities and games, often duplicated, even triplicated. The "Store" is not monitored seriously for quality, although those magic stars pop up alongside the programs. Buried in there are several quality programs, but I am not intent on finding them.
Tongue in cheek - Odd, how few , if any, big Microsoft programs have eluded the store?
P.S. Good to see you posting here again, Cat.
"Windowed modern apps makes no sense to me - that's what the conventional desktop programs are for"
I use, and am happy with, the Modern screen as my start menu, so cannot fully support arguments in favour of the return of the start menu. But that is a personal choice. But, I recently reinstalled the Classic. You have to take my word for it, but I found clicking through a a couple or more layers in order to get what I wanted, quite irritating. Even should they reintroduce the legacy start menu, I will not be using it.
But the so-called "Apps"? What exactly is the point of them
Whilst efforts are being made, now, to have them windowed, hard as I try, I cannot find any reason to use a full app, rather than its desktop counterpart. Further, with guidance from MS, as well as other contributors, there have ben many tutorials on how to actually write an App. The result has been a flood of very small and, in the majority of cases, useless utilities and games, often duplicated, even triplicated. The "Store" is not monitored seriously for quality, although those magic stars pop up alongside the programs. Buried in there are several quality programs, but I am not intent on finding them.
Tongue in cheek - Odd, how few , if any, big Microsoft programs have eluded the store?
P.S. Good to see you posting here again, Cat.
catilley1092
Extraordinary Member
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
Thanks for the welcome, davehc!
Actually the only one of those apps on the Tiles that I use is the Weather one, though I can also get the same, minus the details, from the desktop with Bing Desktop. Plus get a new desktop image daily at 3AM.
It's not that I'm against change or new features (another reason why I'm glad that we now can boot to Desktop naturally again), it's just that some of these changes went too far, too fast for many who has been using Windows for years. Those of us who did run the previews, were in the know. However we were a tiny fraction of the total number of Windows users, many who bought a computer after 10/26/1012 were totally blindsided with what they seen.
Many of which had no idea whatsoever of the numerous changes & many of which also returned their computers inside of the retailer's time frame.
Generally speaking, many of us who participates on tech forums daily had the best chance of succeeding, because of the extra 8 months that we had. Also, initial interest in Windows 8 was very high, according to download stats, but those dwindled fast once it was seen what Windows 8 was going to be.
I also agree that the Store isn't monitored seriously for app quality. Some are total crap & yes, there's many identical ones, as I noticed shortly after Windows 8's release.
Cat
Actually the only one of those apps on the Tiles that I use is the Weather one, though I can also get the same, minus the details, from the desktop with Bing Desktop. Plus get a new desktop image daily at 3AM.
It's not that I'm against change or new features (another reason why I'm glad that we now can boot to Desktop naturally again), it's just that some of these changes went too far, too fast for many who has been using Windows for years. Those of us who did run the previews, were in the know. However we were a tiny fraction of the total number of Windows users, many who bought a computer after 10/26/1012 were totally blindsided with what they seen.
Many of which had no idea whatsoever of the numerous changes & many of which also returned their computers inside of the retailer's time frame.
Generally speaking, many of us who participates on tech forums daily had the best chance of succeeding, because of the extra 8 months that we had. Also, initial interest in Windows 8 was very high, according to download stats, but those dwindled fast once it was seen what Windows 8 was going to be.
I also agree that the Store isn't monitored seriously for app quality. Some are total crap & yes, there's many identical ones, as I noticed shortly after Windows 8's release.
Cat
- Joined
- May 25, 2009
- Location
- Ada Michigan
Hi
I'll stick with simpler is better.
I wish I could design my own interface.
In a way I guess that's what those of us who use Classic Shell, Modern Mix, and Rocketdock do.
All the software I use on a regular basis is one click from the desktop on Rocketdock.
Those things I may want to use while I'm in another program are on the taskbar, i.e. Skype, Word, the Snipping Tool, so they are visible when I'm in something like Photoshop and want to call someone look up information or find an image.
I can have my browser open, and get to Word with one click, then use snap to format the desktop into two windows and drag back and forth between Chrome and Word, I do that a lot.
I think the thing about Windows 8 that's most troubling is the fact that it's Apps aren't really Windows anymore.
Running multiple applications, and switching back and forth is what Windows is all about.
I admit that people who only use their browser and email or play games, don't see the problem the same way, but that's what makes it work for me.
I have to switch back and forth between 2, 3, or more programs a lot when I work.
I will have Photoshop, Indesign, Poser, or Premiere, open with elements of the project I'm working on at the same time in all of them.
That's always been the whole idea of Windows.
Mike
I'll stick with simpler is better.
I wish I could design my own interface.
In a way I guess that's what those of us who use Classic Shell, Modern Mix, and Rocketdock do.
All the software I use on a regular basis is one click from the desktop on Rocketdock.
Those things I may want to use while I'm in another program are on the taskbar, i.e. Skype, Word, the Snipping Tool, so they are visible when I'm in something like Photoshop and want to call someone look up information or find an image.
I can have my browser open, and get to Word with one click, then use snap to format the desktop into two windows and drag back and forth between Chrome and Word, I do that a lot.
I think the thing about Windows 8 that's most troubling is the fact that it's Apps aren't really Windows anymore.
Running multiple applications, and switching back and forth is what Windows is all about.
I admit that people who only use their browser and email or play games, don't see the problem the same way, but that's what makes it work for me.
I have to switch back and forth between 2, 3, or more programs a lot when I work.
I will have Photoshop, Indesign, Poser, or Premiere, open with elements of the project I'm working on at the same time in all of them.
That's always been the whole idea of Windows.
Mike
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Mitchell_A
Essential Member
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2009
So long as an app adheres to legal and performance standards, it will be accepted. The Windows Phone Store was similar in terms of the number of crap apps vs lack of quality ones at launch too, but that trend has practically reversed and it will for Windows 8 as well, in due time.
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Being a "no longer young" person, I have to admit to total frustration with the ongoing criticism of Windows 8, almost to the point that I feel like quitting. It is extremely difficult to bring a discussion over minor (that is how I regard the start menu problem, I'M afraid), issues, in correspondence on a forum, without drawing into a long thread, eventually without meaning or credibility.
Windows 8 remains, with my Metro start menu, an improved, all around, a champion
Windows 8 remains, with my Metro start menu, an improved, all around, a champion
- Joined
- Jul 22, 2005
- Location
- New York, NY, United States
Admittedly, I am happy with Windows 8.1 with Start8 and ModernMix. To me, it looks like Microsoft is following consumer feedback for more widespread adoption, so this should be fine for most customers. I see no reason for them to be punished for doing what they believe is right for their customers; in this case that would be giving their customers more options.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using WindowsForum mobile app
Sent from my Nexus 5 using WindowsForum mobile app
catilley1092
Extraordinary Member
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
So far, I'm also happy with Windows 8.1, on the 2 notebooks it's installed on. Both runs great, though one took a 2nd attempt to get it right. The Dell, I haven't upgraded yet due to a couple of driver issues not yet worked out.
Honestly, I don't miss the Start Menu anymore & am running in the native mode, part of which includes the option to boot to Desktop (on 8.1).
Hopefully if the Start Menu is reintroduced, it can be hidden for those of us who actually spent the time learning how to use the OS as it was designed to be. On the other hand, if it will cause many to migrate from XP, I'm all for the option. Still, as kemical points out above, there will be those who won't be happy.
I feel like davehc, have grown weary of the many who still openly complains about Windows 8, many of whom has put little, if any, effort into trying to learn the OS. I've never seen so many sources post anti-Windows propaganda as I have with Windows 8, some of which were months before it's final release. We have a very functional OS with 8.1, yet many still compares it to Vista. Which itself wasn't really a bad OS, it was just that many in 2006/2007 were still running single core CPU's with 2 to 4GB DDR RAM. On newer computers, it also is good, though not close to 8.1.
Hope that 8.2 continues the trend & while I realize there will always be those who loathes Windows 8 in general, hopefully many more will migrate. 8.1 itself has so many features to offer, way too many to post here & I expect 8.2 to continue plowing forward in it's mission, giving us all as good of a Windows experience as possible.
Cat
Honestly, I don't miss the Start Menu anymore & am running in the native mode, part of which includes the option to boot to Desktop (on 8.1).
Hopefully if the Start Menu is reintroduced, it can be hidden for those of us who actually spent the time learning how to use the OS as it was designed to be. On the other hand, if it will cause many to migrate from XP, I'm all for the option. Still, as kemical points out above, there will be those who won't be happy.
I feel like davehc, have grown weary of the many who still openly complains about Windows 8, many of whom has put little, if any, effort into trying to learn the OS. I've never seen so many sources post anti-Windows propaganda as I have with Windows 8, some of which were months before it's final release. We have a very functional OS with 8.1, yet many still compares it to Vista. Which itself wasn't really a bad OS, it was just that many in 2006/2007 were still running single core CPU's with 2 to 4GB DDR RAM. On newer computers, it also is good, though not close to 8.1.
Hope that 8.2 continues the trend & while I realize there will always be those who loathes Windows 8 in general, hopefully many more will migrate. 8.1 itself has so many features to offer, way too many to post here & I expect 8.2 to continue plowing forward in it's mission, giving us all as good of a Windows experience as possible.
Cat
Basher
Honorable Member
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2009
I don't know what all the fuss is about, the tiles/metro system is just a glorified start button, I find 8.1 a great experience and the "Find Anywhere" a joy to use. When my clients who go over to eight ring me, I just explain it as a big start button which hitting the Windows key activates it, when they think that way after a day or two they love it. But being that I am a MS fan I might be a bit biased 
- Joined
- May 25, 2009
- Location
- Ada Michigan
Hi
It's not the start button or lack of it, that a problem for me.
It's the inability to open multiple windows from Metro.
If you want to use normal software you have to work from the desktop anyway.
The other problem for me is the fact that you can't organise the software links in Metro into folders or have a simple start folder with just the programs you use regularly.
I have some software folders like that have 6 or more links in them, Windows accessories has 17 with other folders in that, there's no reason to spread them out all over the screen.
My Metro Start screen has over 100 icons on it, the all apps screen had over 400, it's just not an efficient way to organise things.
Why didn't they give us a custom start screen (My Software) that you could put in say, 15 icons for the software you use all the time and let up open up several of them at once, in Windows?
You shouldn't have to use 3rd party software to make it work.
Mike
It's not the start button or lack of it, that a problem for me.
It's the inability to open multiple windows from Metro.
If you want to use normal software you have to work from the desktop anyway.
The other problem for me is the fact that you can't organise the software links in Metro into folders or have a simple start folder with just the programs you use regularly.
I have some software folders like that have 6 or more links in them, Windows accessories has 17 with other folders in that, there's no reason to spread them out all over the screen.
My Metro Start screen has over 100 icons on it, the all apps screen had over 400, it's just not an efficient way to organise things.
Why didn't they give us a custom start screen (My Software) that you could put in say, 15 icons for the software you use all the time and let up open up several of them at once, in Windows?
You shouldn't have to use 3rd party software to make it work.
Mike
Basher
Honorable Member
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2009
Hey Mike,
I agree on the folders etc. instead of grouping icons, but I have three monitors and I can now since the 8.1 update have a different metro app open on each monitor (but to be perfectly honest I rarely use them). I also now boot to desktop and have instant access to all my folders and program on my desktop, so 8.1 I feel has certainly tackled some of those issues.
Regards
Basher
I agree on the folders etc. instead of grouping icons, but I have three monitors and I can now since the 8.1 update have a different metro app open on each monitor (but to be perfectly honest I rarely use them
). I also now boot to desktop and have instant access to all my folders and program on my desktop, so 8.1 I feel has certainly tackled some of those issues. Regards
Basher
It's the inability to open multiple windows from Metro.
If you want to use normal software you have to work from the desktop anyway.
After I began to find my way around, I bought Modern mix (Very, very Cheap). This gives the function of having the Metro Apps windowed, as well as desktop, "non-Metro", programs. Since then, however, I have found little in the Metro Apps that I need, so could have dispensed with Modernmix.
The other problem for me is the fact that you can't organise the software links in Metro into folders or have a simple start folder with just the programs you use regularly.
My Metro Start screen has over 100 icons on it, the all apps screen had over 400, it's just not an efficient way to organise things.
Why didn't they give us a custom start screen (My Software) that you could put in say, 15 icons for the software you use all the time and let up open up several of them at once, in Windows?
I have addressed this in several other posts. I have moved the less used program shortcuts down to the "All programs" section, and left myself with a graphical Metro start screen of 28 "daily" shortcuts. The remainder of, seldom used, shortcuts, are a further click away, in "All Programs" - no more bother than having my customised sub menus in the legacy start menu. I admit that the "All programs section is pretty large, but they are categorised and I find, after long use, that I can easily scroll to those I want.
If you want to use normal software you have to work from the desktop anyway.
After I began to find my way around, I bought Modern mix (Very, very Cheap). This gives the function of having the Metro Apps windowed, as well as desktop, "non-Metro", programs. Since then, however, I have found little in the Metro Apps that I need, so could have dispensed with Modernmix.
The other problem for me is the fact that you can't organise the software links in Metro into folders or have a simple start folder with just the programs you use regularly.
My Metro Start screen has over 100 icons on it, the all apps screen had over 400, it's just not an efficient way to organise things.
Why didn't they give us a custom start screen (My Software) that you could put in say, 15 icons for the software you use all the time and let up open up several of them at once, in Windows?
I have addressed this in several other posts. I have moved the less used program shortcuts down to the "All programs" section, and left myself with a graphical Metro start screen of 28 "daily" shortcuts. The remainder of, seldom used, shortcuts, are a further click away, in "All Programs" - no more bother than having my customised sub menus in the legacy start menu. I admit that the "All programs section is pretty large, but they are categorised and I find, after long use, that I can easily scroll to those I want.
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