Insider Preview We need a serious conversation concerning using a PIN to log on....

Discussion in 'Windows 10 Help and Support' started by Saltgrass, May 31, 2015.

  1. Saltgrass

    Saltgrass Excellent Member
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    I have just spent a couple of hours trying to figure out how to get my clean install of 10130 to see my network shares. For some reason, even though I had connectivity, I could not see either my other Windows 10 computer or my NAS.

    For this build, I set up a PIN to log on to the system. I had not logged on with a Password and I did not want to change the current configuration while troubleshooting.

    It seems using a PIN to log on restricts access to your LAN. My other system could see the shares fine and I was trying to compare the two systems to see why one was working and the other was not.

    Well, after much wasted time I decided to go ahead in log on using the Microsoft Account Password. No problem at all, now, seeing the other shares.

    So, I suppose I could ask what are the differences between using a password log on and a PIN log on, since obviously, there are some? Microsoft seems to think a PIN is more secure. Are they talking about a 4 digit PIN or a longer one. Why does it seem using a PIN to log on make a difference in the network connectivity?

    Thanks..
     
  2. Trouble

    Trouble Noob Whisperer

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    Sounds like another glitch in the install.
    So to test that, I cold booted my machine and logged on with my 4 digit PIN.
    I hadn't examined any network features in this build up to this point, since this is my third install (took me three times to get one that actually seems to work mostly).
    I stepped through the processes I would normally do to access my Windows 8.1 machine on the network and didn't have any issues at all.
    During the process I turned on the Steps Recorder on my Windows 10 machine to chronicle the process and have included it as an attachment below if you're interested. Nice to see that, that actually works in Windows 10 too.
     

    Attached Files:

  3. Saltgrass

    Saltgrass Excellent Member
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    After I got mine working, I restarted and signed in with the PIN. Again, no access... no requests for password boxes, just a message about not being able to access when I tried the \\Computer\Share ..

    I noticed, when I was using my Password, in Explorer and selecting the Network tab, I saw the green scanning progress animation. With the PIN sign-in nothing happened at all.

    Anyway, I will try the same thing on my other system. Because of the Blue Screens and "Can't write memory" errors, my gaming system is back on 8.1.. These problems are exactly the same as an earlier build... Too bad it has been several months and they have not yet been fixed...

    Thanks for the response, I will try using your steps recording to see if I am doing something wrong.
     
  4. Saltgrass

    Saltgrass Excellent Member
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    The only difference in the two attachments is I restarted and signed in with a password on the second one. No other system settings were changed. Something seems to be blocking the File access since it does show the iTunes server on the ReadyNAS. Maybe it is related to the Router, but from these two tests on clean installs, I would say something is different... Maybe I am just missing it.

    Network.JPG Network2.JPG
     
  5. Trouble

    Trouble Noob Whisperer

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    Interesting that your PIN logon found an added media device DIRECTV2PC Media Server.

    Probably what I find so confusing, exasperating and damn annoying is the difference in function (what works and what doesn't) between install types (clean versus upgrade) or even second or sometimes third clean installs.

    It would seem that with each iteration they are working with all the bits (it was only a couple builds ago we couldn't even set our IP addressing schema manually to static values without using a damn script to do it).
    It seems Microsoft spends their time telling us about new features and updates with each new build, and.....
    I spend most of my time, investigating what isn't working now.

    I'm not sure how much of this can be attributed to less than optimal driver availability but I would assume.... some. AND how much if any can be attributed to third party software that may be present on some machines.

    I've given up and reverted my primary machine back to Windows 8.1 and have left the bleeding edge fast ring stuff to my secondary machine and I also have it running in Hyper-V as a VM on my main Machine.
    While 10130 seems almost good enough to go back on my primary machine as the main OS based on how it is running in my two test environments now, there is absolutely no way of knowing for sure without actually trying it and I'm not ready for that particular headache again.

    It's confounding when something is happening to you and I can not replicate it in my environment or something is happening to me and apparently you, nor anyone else is having the same or similar experience.
     
  6. Saltgrass

    Saltgrass Excellent Member
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    Considering this build is presenting with problems from much earlier builds, who knows how installs will work if Microsoft isn't keeping track of what has been in a previously publicly released build.

    Agree completely, the entire Insiders Hub seems to be for this express reason.

    I don't think we have yet seen a build which is from the primary stream. All we see are selected builds which have gone through specific groups and still contain the problems for which another group would be responsible
     
  7. Trouble

    Trouble Noob Whisperer

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    I must admit that at least their error messages are getting a bit better.
    I got this one on my first desktop load on one of my attempts at a clean install.
    Screenshot (1).

    AN OOPS
     
  8. Sonny

    Sonny Fantastic Member

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    Trouble I just got the same message when doing another clean install. The only problem I got now is when I restart or shutdown using the power button in the start menu. It tells me memory could not be read. If I right click on the start menu and restart or shutdown I don't have that message. Everything works fine that way.
     
  9. Saltgrass

    Saltgrass Excellent Member
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    Looks like you may be correct, Sonny, in this instance. But that error shows up in different places and was most definitely in an earlier build exactly the same....

    I just took Window 10 off my laptop because I got Cortana to respond to my voice once, but not a second time. The "Insiders" are being used, and not in a good way.
     
  10. Trouble

    Trouble Noob Whisperer

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    That is consistent with what I experience Sonny..... hence my third clean install.

    As I said above.... confused, confounded, exasperated and annoyed, but.....
    Entertained.
     
  11. Sonny

    Sonny Fantastic Member

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    As I just found out when I bugged Microsoft techs again and was told it was just a glitch I could just revert back to the previous version. They also said there was new build coming out in a few weeks. I just wish they would stay with one and get the bugs out before moving on to another.
     
  12. Trouble

    Trouble Noob Whisperer

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    And Clark.....
    I think you're on the right track when it comes to the 4 digit PIN and various aspects of networking.
    I did some further investigating and as it happens.....
    Logged on to my 10 machine, when I attempted to connect to my Windows 8 machine shares, everything was good, but.....
    When I attempted to connect to my wife's Windows 7 machine shares upstairs, I kept getting "you don't have permission" and I believe another one which I don't recall the exact wording. However....
    Thinking of your recent experiences, I signed off and logged back on using my password and all was right with the world.

    I suspect that because my Windows 10 and 8 machines both support 4 digit PINS as well as Picture Passwords and Windows 7 doesn't that, that might have something to do with the error problems.
    I even went so far as going into the Credentials Manager on my Win 10 machine and creating the proper credentials to access my wife's machine but it did absolutely no good at all.

    AND in the process I created a share on my Windows 10 computer just to get into the spirit of things and now for some reason, my 4 digit PIN is no longer available as a log in option. So there must be a link in that mess somewhere.
    Go figure.
     
  13. Saltgrass

    Saltgrass Excellent Member
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    I am going to start looking on how each system is configured, for instance in one a Secure Boot system or not, or is one UEFI or MBR. The NAS, I believe, runs some form of Linux.. But it is funny that another Windows 10 cannot be seen, but a Windows 8 one can.

    Maybe I need to sign into both Windows 10 systems with PINs and see if that matters. I will have to reconnect that drive on my Gaming system.

    I have sent Feedback to Microsoft. That one along with the Install User issue might delay the release of the OS!! ;)
     
  14. Saltgrass

    Saltgrass Excellent Member
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    I have just bumped into the fact there is a difference between your user name and your Network Credentials.

    I also realized many of the Advanced Sharing settings involve having an account on the target system. When setting up Windows 10, you will probably not have the same user name, so I need to find some way to translate the e-mail user name to my normal user account. Perhaps the Windows Credentials has this capability, but I will have to do some research.

    I tried logging in with a local account and things up. But after doing that, I had lost the ability to do a PIN sign-in and had to delete the contents of the NGC folder to get it back after setting it up again.

    It doesn't look like Microsoft is going to allow you to select you own User name, and possibly even the ability to change to a local account will be gone. But something has to be done to allow users access to their accounts on other devices. Even if someone upgraded their other Windows 8 or 7 systems, they would still have the old user account...
     
  15. davehc

    davehc Microsoft MVP
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    "It doesn't look like Microsoft is going to allow you to select you own User name, and possibly even the ability to change to a local account will be gone"

    My apologies if I speak in ignorance. I have not been following this thread, as far as the thread title was concerned, but I was drawn to your comment , Saltgrass.

    I still have my username , let us say, in windows explorer - users. That is "David"
    When Windows 10 tech preview was first put out, I was annoyed to find that it changed my username to the first portion of my MS account - davehc, all small letters. It glared out looking very dumb in Windows explorer.
    But the answer was easy. Since then, I log in with a local account, giving myself the username David. As soon as the remaining formalities are complete, and I arrive at the desktop, I go to the settings accounts and logo in, and "switch" to my MS account. This combines the two and keeps my original username as the only user.
     
  16. Saltgrass

    Saltgrass Excellent Member
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    Thanks Dave, I think most of us know about that. During the Preview, I am just playing the game to see how things might work. I don't think you would dispute Microsoft has been making it harder for normal folks to do clean installs using the Local Account.

    But I do have a question. Since your system was set up with your original user name, can you set up a PIN? If you go back to your Local Account, does it stay as a log in option? Can you access that same account on another system without giving it special permissions?

    Trouble is the networking expert here as far as I know, but I was using my Network Credentials (e-mail address) to log on to a Windows 8.1 system. All I saw was the Public Folder which conforms to the Advanced Sharing options. It would also be interesting to see how your Network Credentials are set up if you still have the Local Account user name.

    I still think we should have the option of picking the user name to be used by the system. But it looks to me like my next step would be to install Windows 10 using the local account and see what I can see on my other systems when logged in on the Microsoft account.

    Thanks for the reply..
     
  17. Saltgrass

    Saltgrass Excellent Member
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    I suppose setting up a Homegroup might be a partial answer... It does allow me to share some folders from any user and does show both my Local and Microsoft user accounts. It does not seem to allow accessing all folders as if you were actually logged on to that system.
     
  18. davehc

    davehc Microsoft MVP
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    Not sure on your response. I have not noticed any big change to enable a local account. It then does give me the option of choosing the username (on the local account)
    Leaving the pin aside, about which I know b-all, (No particular use for it).

    "if you still have the Local Account user name."

    Not sure on that one. As I said, when I was offered to switch from a local account to a MS account, it assumed the local account username.
    But, as I said in my first post, I came in to this thread with trepidation. In view of your first sentence regarding the method of obtaining a correct username,(I think most of us know) I guess I did misunderstand what is being discussed, so I'll leave it to you guys.

    P.S. Just came back to add. I use Team viewer for network sharing. Easy to set up, easier to use.
     
    #18 davehc, Jun 3, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2015
  19. Saltgrass

    Saltgrass Excellent Member
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    I just reinstalled on my Laptop starting with the Local Account and then signing into a Microsoft later. If you go from a Microsoft Account to a Local account, check the user settings and see if it still offers disconnecting from the Microsoft account or still shows log into a local account. Basically, your current configuration, Local, and the options offered do not agree.

    The PIN is available from a Local Account and will stick when signing onto a Microsoft one. But when you go to the Microsoft Account, your user account switches also, so even having the local folders, other systems still see it as the Microsoft User.

    These are things that might show up during the public release so I am just getting ready the best I can.

    I was also wondering about a new system already loaded with Windows 10. Will the oobe allow for a Local Account Setup? I am guessing it will be much like the install process, but not sure.
     
  20. Trouble

    Trouble Noob Whisperer

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