Drew
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What are you guys talking about?? I've been running Win8 non-stop since 29/2 on a non-touch conventional desktop. I never use of visit the Win8 Start screen so impossible to make a problem of that screen. Win8 is working beautifully for me & many, many others, on regular PCs & laptops. Sorry but, the "big cel phone" label doesn't fit. It is not "useless" on a desktop, @ all. Does very nicely, actually.
Trouble
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I for one, am getting pretty sick and tired of you constantly telling everyone how great, flawless and generally phenomenal Windows 8 is.
It boots to a lock screen, which I have to dismiss. Who needs that, who wants that on a desktop..... it's a cell phone OS
Then it loads a Tiled Icon "START" screen. Just like my Windows Phone 7. Who needs that, who wants that on a desktop ..... it's a cell phone OS
Even Microsoft's vice president in charge of something or other admitted that it was not intended for Desktop PCs (PERSONAL Computers) that were equipped with a constant power supply but was rather designed for ultra portable, battery dependent devices. It's a cell phone OS. I actually posted that in another thread and provided a link to his statement. I will find it if you would like. He also stated that Windows 7 would be the last in the line of Microsoft Operating systems designed for the Desktop.
Now simply stating over and over and over again that something is great, does not make it so.
And simply stating that if someone likes Windows 7 better, or if you are happy with Windows 7 then stay with what makes you happy does not advance the discourse.
You can like Windows 8 without heaping praise on it, like it is the all new Holy Grail of Desktop Computing, because it is certainly not.
Does it work? Sure.
Is it fast? I guess so.
Can I work around the cell phone like interface and avoid most of it all day long? Sure.
Should I have to? No.
And I personally believe that, that is the keystone to this and any previous or future argument regarding Windows 8. Everyone who ran the Developers Preview, knows how easy it was, if you chose to do so, revert back to a classic Windows 7 like shell. One simple registry edit and no more metro anything.
That option is completely gone now and I think that the unmitigated arrogance of Microsoft in removing that may very well prove their undoing.
Some one would have to be completely oblivious to not see what is going on here. This is not an OS that has made my Desktop computing experience better in any way. This is an OS that forces me to find work arounds to get simple tasks done.
And the bottom line is that this is an OS that was designed to sell tablets (slates) and cell phones that host a Windows Operating System and I wish them my best in respect to that endeavor, because I don't see Android and Apple setting idling by and letting that happen.
It's a cell phone OS.
It boots to a lock screen, which I have to dismiss. Who needs that, who wants that on a desktop..... it's a cell phone OS
Then it loads a Tiled Icon "START" screen. Just like my Windows Phone 7. Who needs that, who wants that on a desktop ..... it's a cell phone OS
Even Microsoft's vice president in charge of something or other admitted that it was not intended for Desktop PCs (PERSONAL Computers) that were equipped with a constant power supply but was rather designed for ultra portable, battery dependent devices. It's a cell phone OS. I actually posted that in another thread and provided a link to his statement. I will find it if you would like. He also stated that Windows 7 would be the last in the line of Microsoft Operating systems designed for the Desktop.
Now simply stating over and over and over again that something is great, does not make it so.
And simply stating that if someone likes Windows 7 better, or if you are happy with Windows 7 then stay with what makes you happy does not advance the discourse.
You can like Windows 8 without heaping praise on it, like it is the all new Holy Grail of Desktop Computing, because it is certainly not.
Does it work? Sure.
Is it fast? I guess so.
Can I work around the cell phone like interface and avoid most of it all day long? Sure.
Should I have to? No.
And I personally believe that, that is the keystone to this and any previous or future argument regarding Windows 8. Everyone who ran the Developers Preview, knows how easy it was, if you chose to do so, revert back to a classic Windows 7 like shell. One simple registry edit and no more metro anything.
That option is completely gone now and I think that the unmitigated arrogance of Microsoft in removing that may very well prove their undoing.
Some one would have to be completely oblivious to not see what is going on here. This is not an OS that has made my Desktop computing experience better in any way. This is an OS that forces me to find work arounds to get simple tasks done.
And the bottom line is that this is an OS that was designed to sell tablets (slates) and cell phones that host a Windows Operating System and I wish them my best in respect to that endeavor, because I don't see Android and Apple setting idling by and letting that happen.
It's a cell phone OS.
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The idea that Microsoft is up against major moves in the miniaturized hardware market is not an exaggeration from Randy. Although, I know that he has addressed it from an end-user perspective. I have looked at this issue of user interface from a more business-based perspective, and have come to similar early conclusions. That is not to say I like these conclusions at all, but take a look at what Microsoft is up against in this new, super-fast developing market:
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/353518/20120618/samsung-galaxy-s3-release-date-usa-specs.htm
Note above: Apple is still trying to file injunctions at the last minute to try to have this phone pulled off the market.
Now, Facebook will roll out its line of phones, which will obviously first appeal to the 16-25 year old demographic next year. This will also be based on the Android SDK. The Motorola Razr MAXX for Verizon outsold the iPhone here in the US. But if we look at what is going on with the Facebook phone, think of your profile as a wireless identifier as you are in a lounge with a dozen people who all have the same phone. Suddenly, you can find out who is in the room with you, and if they're your friends, you can choose to pair the device and share photographs that you take together. You can automatically tag your friends based on the facial recognition technology and "check-in" to locations automatically. Suddenly, it becomes useful for all sorts of things, like business, science, and even exploration. The type of device I am describing has the capability of adding a new layer of protocol to your existing your 3G/4G/WiFi connection, creating what will create a new layered local area network (LAN) using Facebook in bars, restaurants, board rooms, and offices all around the world. Two reviews above and look at the technology they have to beat. I should note that Apple is still trying to get an injunction to prevent the release of this phone, prompting pre-orders to hit record highs. And this is not the Facebook phone I just envisioned to you, based on similar technology. What will emerge from all of this confluence and induction will be the world's largest number of local area networks that form, somehow, using these new APIs and protocols over the cellphone networks, into a sort of new wide area network over the Internet. The inter-connectivity of phones is what is going to change everything, and this has changed hardware manufacturing and selling itself into a service platform powered by advertisers. This is an industry worth hundreds of billions of dollars. Microsoft's current cash reserves, last time I checked, were around $60B.
I theorize that the best way to continue Microsoft Windows would be to create a subscription service for annual updates (similar to what Adobe has done with their CS6 products but much cheaper), and to actually work with Google, Facebook, and Apple to create cross-compatibility with each type of device or an open source consortium that uses virtualization for layering and a unified system for ultra-slim portables, cellphones, and pads. In exchange, the Windows source could be opened up to third-party development from Google and Apple. However, this is a dream scenario. The current situation is that everyone wants a piece of the new pie, and currently, Microsoft only has the crumbs with their phones. This is where we are seeing a big problem. Meanwhile, actual desktop computers used as workstations aren't going away. The demand for them continues.
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/353518/20120618/samsung-galaxy-s3-release-date-usa-specs.htm
Note above: Apple is still trying to file injunctions at the last minute to try to have this phone pulled off the market.
Now, Facebook will roll out its line of phones, which will obviously first appeal to the 16-25 year old demographic next year. This will also be based on the Android SDK. The Motorola Razr MAXX for Verizon outsold the iPhone here in the US. But if we look at what is going on with the Facebook phone, think of your profile as a wireless identifier as you are in a lounge with a dozen people who all have the same phone. Suddenly, you can find out who is in the room with you, and if they're your friends, you can choose to pair the device and share photographs that you take together. You can automatically tag your friends based on the facial recognition technology and "check-in" to locations automatically. Suddenly, it becomes useful for all sorts of things, like business, science, and even exploration. The type of device I am describing has the capability of adding a new layer of protocol to your existing your 3G/4G/WiFi connection, creating what will create a new layered local area network (LAN) using Facebook in bars, restaurants, board rooms, and offices all around the world. Two reviews above and look at the technology they have to beat. I should note that Apple is still trying to get an injunction to prevent the release of this phone, prompting pre-orders to hit record highs. And this is not the Facebook phone I just envisioned to you, based on similar technology. What will emerge from all of this confluence and induction will be the world's largest number of local area networks that form, somehow, using these new APIs and protocols over the cellphone networks, into a sort of new wide area network over the Internet. The inter-connectivity of phones is what is going to change everything, and this has changed hardware manufacturing and selling itself into a service platform powered by advertisers. This is an industry worth hundreds of billions of dollars. Microsoft's current cash reserves, last time I checked, were around $60B.
I theorize that the best way to continue Microsoft Windows would be to create a subscription service for annual updates (similar to what Adobe has done with their CS6 products but much cheaper), and to actually work with Google, Facebook, and Apple to create cross-compatibility with each type of device or an open source consortium that uses virtualization for layering and a unified system for ultra-slim portables, cellphones, and pads. In exchange, the Windows source could be opened up to third-party development from Google and Apple. However, this is a dream scenario. The current situation is that everyone wants a piece of the new pie, and currently, Microsoft only has the crumbs with their phones. This is where we are seeing a big problem. Meanwhile, actual desktop computers used as workstations aren't going away. The demand for them continues.
Drew
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It's ok for what everyone says including me... Me who is not saying you gotta love Windows8, I could care less, that's not the point. Just that it is not true that the OS is useless on a desktop.
You are telling people who may not have had their hands on it yet themselves that it is bad, dumb & pointless.
There are A LOT of people who do not feel that. Point is if, people read, hear or quote things, they are negatively swayed, influenced & that is, too bad. Especially, when what someone sees, videos & more, reads & hears, is going to mislead Folks that reckon they should believe it just cus somebody told 'em or they read it somewhere or a friend sent them a YouTube
Your coming down on me & treating it like I'm saying something ignorant & nasty while you are seemingly not catching my point, @ all. There's nothing here to try & make an argument w/ me... there's nothing to argue over.
It's odd you get mad cus many people are seeing & saying that the Win8 Start screen is not a big deal or a problem, nor are the alleged missing start buttons or menus. Seems whilst your giving me grief, many people beside me are more happily using Win8 than seeing terrible things.
Those many people, can be allowed to be wrong & allowed to talk freely, as long they are not hurting others, of course.
You are telling people who may not have had their hands on it yet themselves that it is bad, dumb & pointless.
There are A LOT of people who do not feel that. Point is if, people read, hear or quote things, they are negatively swayed, influenced & that is, too bad. Especially, when what someone sees, videos & more, reads & hears, is going to mislead Folks that reckon they should believe it just cus somebody told 'em or they read it somewhere or a friend sent them a YouTube
Your coming down on me & treating it like I'm saying something ignorant & nasty while you are seemingly not catching my point, @ all. There's nothing here to try & make an argument w/ me... there's nothing to argue over.
It's odd you get mad cus many people are seeing & saying that the Win8 Start screen is not a big deal or a problem, nor are the alleged missing start buttons or menus. Seems whilst your giving me grief, many people beside me are more happily using Win8 than seeing terrible things.
Those many people, can be allowed to be wrong & allowed to talk freely, as long they are not hurting others, of course.
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Actually, no where did I state that these phones are better than Windows 8. I have stated that Microsoft has little to no market share in the phone or tablet market, which is a fact. How this influences the development of the Windows operating system on what were once being termed "desktop" PC's is up to major re-interpretation with this release. I believe this is less misleading than saying that I love an incomplete release preview and that no sacrifices have been made to get it on portable devices. This is especially true considering that Windows RT is being delayed an additional year.
Drew
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I think it will do well in the phone market. It is again, the desktop market I am worried about 
I do not think it is wrong to be concerned at this stage. I am excited to see how well it will work with a traditional, non-touchscreen workstation. I still have lots of USB, eSATA, and PCI devices and lots of work to do. I want Windows 8 to work great on my system. The problem is I, honestly, currently have software activation on all of my systems, including my laptops, and do not have a clean test bed. The solution is that I can run VMWare Workstation on a number of eSATA SSD's with 24GB of RAM on each machine and test Windows 8 that way. To me it looks like we have a bumpy ride to RTM. Certain things may have been left out on purpose. So I am keeping an open mind, but I will not say it is great right away. For me, Metro is an inconvenience. For more novice users, it may be easier or harder. I have been stuck using icons and a desktop most of my life. Even Amiga workbench had a GUI with a dropdown menu and icons... so that is where we are at.. the big task of re-inventing Windows to fit on every device. If it doesn't work first go around, you know what will happen, at least in IT circles. There will be a push to wait for SP1. And Microsoft will push functionality/kernel improvements into a SP1 if that scenario happens... I'm just not ready to say, "Cool, go live with this thing and run wild!" I'm not at that stage yet. I need it to be compatible with everything I do, and make 100% sure I want to deal with this type of interface permanently. That is why I will wait till RTM... which I suspect isn't that far off, actually.
I do not think it is wrong to be concerned at this stage. I am excited to see how well it will work with a traditional, non-touchscreen workstation. I still have lots of USB, eSATA, and PCI devices and lots of work to do. I want Windows 8 to work great on my system. The problem is I, honestly, currently have software activation on all of my systems, including my laptops, and do not have a clean test bed. The solution is that I can run VMWare Workstation on a number of eSATA SSD's with 24GB of RAM on each machine and test Windows 8 that way. To me it looks like we have a bumpy ride to RTM. Certain things may have been left out on purpose. So I am keeping an open mind, but I will not say it is great right away. For me, Metro is an inconvenience. For more novice users, it may be easier or harder. I have been stuck using icons and a desktop most of my life. Even Amiga workbench had a GUI with a dropdown menu and icons... so that is where we are at.. the big task of re-inventing Windows to fit on every device. If it doesn't work first go around, you know what will happen, at least in IT circles. There will be a push to wait for SP1. And Microsoft will push functionality/kernel improvements into a SP1 if that scenario happens... I'm just not ready to say, "Cool, go live with this thing and run wild!" I'm not at that stage yet. I need it to be compatible with everything I do, and make 100% sure I want to deal with this type of interface permanently. That is why I will wait till RTM... which I suspect isn't that far off, actually.
Drew
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Mike,
It, actually, does quite nicely on a non-touch, conventional PC. AND there is, in fact 100% choice... Start need not be a concern or impediment... can live, work, play on, @ & from Desktop handily & conveniently; personally I don't (need to) visit Start, @ all.
Also, not finding anything allegedly "left out" making anything awkward... couple things on the Taskbar & everything is @ one's fingertips & exclusively, using Desktop.
All I do @ Start is hit the Desktop tile.
Regards,
Drew
It, actually, does quite nicely on a non-touch, conventional PC. AND there is, in fact 100% choice... Start need not be a concern or impediment... can live, work, play on, @ & from Desktop handily & conveniently; personally I don't (need to) visit Start, @ all.
Also, not finding anything allegedly "left out" making anything awkward... couple things on the Taskbar & everything is @ one's fingertips & exclusively, using Desktop.
All I do @ Start is hit the Desktop tile.
Regards,
Drew
shaneblack
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I feel the same as Drew on this one, only I do alittle more at the start screen with apps and I have a laptop. I find it very useful and I know probably millions of others will too. The desktop is a power house for every need you can think of and metro is a smart informational tool used to know things at a glance. The two combined make windows more feature rich then before. I would like to see a better weather app though, the ones they have now need work with informing you better of alerts and also needs better radar tools. Thats the only thing I can think of but maybe it will be improved.
Drew
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Shane,
The APPs are (still) a work in progress. There were significant & noticeable improvements & changes from CP to RP in this regard. The App Preview tag, still, showing. Expect a good amount more attention to this area by RTM.
Cheers,
Drew
PS: BTW, I am not saying I never use any of the APPs... oh, no, no, mon cheri, I use some, sometimes, I just access them w/out leaving Desktop
No going to Start or Win+Q for them.
The APPs are (still) a work in progress. There were significant & noticeable improvements & changes from CP to RP in this regard. The App Preview tag, still, showing. Expect a good amount more attention to this area by RTM.
Cheers,
Drew
PS: BTW, I am not saying I never use any of the APPs... oh, no, no, mon cheri, I use some, sometimes, I just access them w/out leaving Desktop
No going to Start or Win+Q for them.
whs
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Drew, I understand that Windows 8 can be run on a desktop. But in many aspects it is quite inconvenient and not really progress for the desktop user. My wording of 'useless' was trying to imply that this lack of progress gives no incentive to the desktop user to go to /8 because he is probably better off with /7.
Although there are some nice features in /8, I do not really see enough meat to dish out a couple of hundred bucks to get /8 - and that 6 times for all my systems. Plus the question is whether the small advantages outweigh the inconveniences.
I have uninstalled /8 from my systems and run it only in Virtual Box to check from time to time whether there is any news. I also have a version on a USB stick, but that is only for experimenting. Right now it is buggy anyhow - at least in the graphics driver area. In fact the RT does not run as well as the CP on my systems.
Although there are some nice features in /8, I do not really see enough meat to dish out a couple of hundred bucks to get /8 - and that 6 times for all my systems. Plus the question is whether the small advantages outweigh the inconveniences.
I have uninstalled /8 from my systems and run it only in Virtual Box to check from time to time whether there is any news. I also have a version on a USB stick, but that is only for experimenting. Right now it is buggy anyhow - at least in the graphics driver area. In fact the RT does not run as well as the CP on my systems.
Drew
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No worries, fair enough. Certainly, there's no obligation to purchase any amount of Windows8, @ any particular time.
Personally, I'm definitely not finding it "inconvenient", maybe somewhat more towards convenient & easy. Many things can be had more directly & handily than before. There are 'advantages' or enhancements to or in Win8... the impact can vary, be relative & subjective.
Have fun, whatever you do.
Cheers,
Drew
Personally, I'm definitely not finding it "inconvenient", maybe somewhat more towards convenient & easy. Many things can be had more directly & handily than before. There are 'advantages' or enhancements to or in Win8... the impact can vary, be relative & subjective.
Have fun, whatever you do.
Cheers,
Drew
shaneblack
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In my area with windows I agree with some of what both of you guys say, I feel Drew is right on ease of access, but on the other hand I agree that the graphics drivers are not yet ready. Once they are though expect a greater performance then with windows 7. I don't use win 7 graphics drivers anymore with win8, they performed worse then Vista on my laptop. My laptop is a good laptop too. I switched to vista's video driver and have had no problems at all. You see I tried Windows 7 some time ago, and I had no luck gaming. The gaming was worse then any windows I tried with my laptop (Thinkpad R61)(x3100 Intel video driver). Xp and Vista did better jobs with games, Xp was fast but was unstable at times, vista was stable but slower. Now I am on Win8 I have good Frames Per Second in games, the win8 driver isn't ready and has major bugs which made me use 7 which had almost the same effect, which now made me use vista's which is working just fine and has good performance in games. I almost bet 100% when the driver is ready it will blow all the others.
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I'm confused when you guys say no drivers? I understand from the lappie perspective but on the desktop end we've had a driver for both Nvidia and AMD (for 5000 series and above) for some days now.. One of the reasons i like Windows 8 is due to the graphics. Games look better and in most cases run faster. WDDM 1.2 is a vast improvment over 1.1 and for me games look simply gorgeous.. (I've even gone through my back catalogue of games just to see how they'd look.)
But buggy? Not been my experience although not all of us will see the same thing depending on hardware, yada, yada.....
But buggy? Not been my experience although not all of us will see the same thing depending on hardware, yada, yada.....
whs
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shaneblack
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I understand wdm 1.2 is vast improvement, to make things clearer about what I said earlier I was talking about my video driver which only supports wdm 1.1 I think it is. I don't think mine support 1.2 so I'm in a different area then most people. My graphics are alittle old (2007) but have enough power for gaming. Last night I watched a movie and had some small freezes here and there but it could have been the movie. I'll be glad when Intel gets in gear and starts putting out some good drivers for 8.
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@ whs. Yup it's a shame the AMD driver only covers 5000 series and above. I mean it's not like the 4 series cards are particularly ancient as they are capable of DX10.1. Now I'm unsure if anything below the 5000 series has the hardware physically capable of running the new updates..(mind you, Win 8 is a DX11 os so this is perhaps the reason why only DX11 capable cards are capable of WDDM1.2)
@ Shane Black. As soon as I see a an Intel driver I'll post it asap. I did post an update for Intel cpu integrated graphics here:
http://windows8forums.com/windows-8...raphics-driver-windows-8-release-preview.html Am still waiting on the chipset version to be released but as soon as it is we will have it up in the forum.
@ Shane Black. As soon as I see a an Intel driver I'll post it asap. I did post an update for Intel cpu integrated graphics here:
http://windows8forums.com/windows-8...raphics-driver-windows-8-release-preview.html Am still waiting on the chipset version to be released but as soon as it is we will have it up in the forum.
shaneblack
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@ Shane Black. As soon as I see a an Intel driver I'll post it asap. I did post an update for Intel cpu integrated graphics here:
http://windows8forums.com/windows-8...raphics-driver-windows-8-release-preview.html Am still waiting on the chipset version to be released but as soon as it is we will have it up in the forum.
Thank you, its goes by two names, but the intel website has it listed Mobile Intel® 965 Express Chipset Family. People also call it x3100. I seen the hd graphics driver they released for win8 but I'm not sure it will work for my gpu chipset. I'm not sure if their compatible and I'm afraid if I try it I'll mess up my laptop.
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shaneblack
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Its a real shame, It seems those bugs are really giving me a hard time. Watching videos and movies isn't very good yet, It will glitch or slow down at random points no matter what video I play. I believe its the graphics driver which is not meant for windows 8, I have to be able to play videos and game so I hate to say it but I'll have to downgrade back to another windows version for now. As soon as they put a video driver out I'll be switching right back to windows 8 though.
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